Ejidos

[dmcauley]

Yeah, lifes a bitch. My wife paid her dues weekly for many years to be part of her ejido. The dues have been collected for petitioning the government, a lengthy process, for the rights to some ocean front land. This is a right that the locals of Sonora were given many, many years ago. After twenty years an American developer wants the land and the members got really excited but the developers don't feel they should pay. After all, these people are mostly poor any way, what do they need so much money for? The land is worth more now and the Mexicans are being unfair.
:mexico: :mexico: :mexico: :mexico: :mexico:

[janetandclint]

Dmcauley,

Would you tell us what is the history of Mexican citizens of the ejidos losing their land to development companies?

[playaperro]

Who are the developers?

[Roberto]

From what I've seen, the members of the Ejido screw over each other more than by outsiders. I read that the Ejido was actually an idea used by the Aztecs.

[JimMcG]

From what I've seen, the members of the Ejido screw over each other more than by outsiders. I read that the Ejido was actually an idea used by the Aztecs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejido

[Wahoo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejido

Very interesting, and that could be the problem with buying an Ejido property.

"Ejidatarios did not actually own the land, but were allowed to use their alloted parcels indefinitely as long as they did not fail to use the land for more than two years. They could even pass their rights on to their children."

Something like trying to buy land from an Indian in and Indian reservation. They have the rights to the land but never actually own it.

[JimMcG]

Very interesting, and that could be the problem with buying an Ejido property.

"Ejidatarios did not actually own the land, but were allowed to use their alloted parcels indefinitely as long as they did not fail to use the land for more than two years. They could even pass their rights on to their children."

Something like trying to buy land from an Indian in and Indian reservation. They have the rights to the land but never actually own it.

http://www.mexicocb.com/pages-What-is-Ejido-Property

Apparently, it can be done if all the requirements are met.

[Wahoo]

Jim Thanks, I never knew the details;Yes it can be done but... the hoops and the number of persons agreeing to a "cheap sale" of their land to a foreigner it a best very very risky bet. With so much land available why even get involved in a "tar baby".

After a price has been agreed there is three more layers of sellers that have to agree. Read on.

Here are some points for Our RP community;

A foreigner can buy Ejido land, but the sale requires the agreement of the whole community that "own" it.
Often the process can be accomplished in months, but sometimes it can take several years.

Until an Ejido has been transferred to private ownership, with title, there is no 100% safe way to buy Ejido property as a foreigner, although many do purchase this type of land.

As in any type of land purchase transaction in Mexico, there will always be an element of trust involved. Since Ejido land is much less expensive than regularized land, many foreigners have elected to take the risk and buy Ejido property, however, they do so recognizing that they have absolutely no rights, until they are able to legally obtain a fidecomiso (bank trust) of their own.

A foreigner purchases Ejido property by placing the Ejido title to the land in the name of a trusted friend or relative who is Mexican, called a "Prestanombre" (translation: borrowed name), who then becomes a member of the Ejido, relying on the "hope" that when, or if, the land is regularized, ownership can be converted to a fideicomiso (bank trust) in their own name.

Trust in their "prestanombre" is a must s that person ultimately has control over the property in the mean time and the foreign "owner" has no recourse whatsoever in the Mexican legal system. Cases which have gone all the way to the Mexican Supreme Court, foreigners have been thrown off their land and treated as squatters.

And now the tricky part:

Once an offer has been made to an Ejido landowner (Ejiditario) the spouse and or heirs of the ejiditario will have the first right of refusal to purchase at the offering price.

The second right of refusal is held by the Ejido membership as a community. They must approve the sale by a 75% majority vote in their regularly held meetings (Asambleas).

If they vote to accept the sale, the written offer is posted for 30 days in the Ejido office. During these 30 days, any Ejido member can exercise their right of purchasing the property at the proposed price, having the third right of refusal.

If none of these rights of refusal result in a sale, "anyone" can purchase the land from the Ejiditario.

It is further recommended that the purchaser have a legal document made up through a Notario between themselves and their Prestanombre, who will agree to give the purchaser recession of his rights, the moment the Ejido title completes Procede and becomes title able. This will further strengthen the bond between the buyer and Prestanombre and lesson the amount of risk involved in the sale.

This is a general and informative background as to how the Ejido came about, what it is, how it is organized and how to purchase this type of land.

Read this three times before even considering "looking" at an ejido. No wonder so many of htese become "tar babies".

[lagrimas85]

Half of Rocky Point was or still is an ejido Mayan Palace, Laguna Shores all of black mountain. The ejido San Rafael is in the city. Ejido Miramar. Ejido Lagrimas is now a big part of the city with 1000 house built in last coupleyears. Once they have been privatized and titles issued they are no longer ejidos they are private property. The danger for a foreiner is before titles are issued there can be no bank trust hence the need to be put into a nationals name or prestanombre as they call them in Mexico. Which the government frowns on because they look at it as if the foreinger and prestanombre are trying to circumvent federal laws about foreign ownership. I f you tell a notory in Puerto Penasco what you are doing he probably will throw you out of his office. THE EJIDO IS NOT THE PROBLEM the law is the law and when foreigners try to take shortcuts thats when they have problems. I work in Las Conchas, Mirador, Ejido Lagrimas and Ejido Lopez Aceves the only 2 places I dont have problems is in the ejidos as Roberto can testify to if he wants to. For me its a special feeling almost an honor to be allowed to work in the ejidos.

[Mentiras y Traición]

"A foreigner purchases Ejido property by placing the Ejido title to the land in the name of a trusted friend or relative who is Mexican, called a "Prestanombre" (translation: borrowed name), who then becomes a member of the Ejido, relying on the "hope" that when, or if, the land is regularized, ownership can be converted to a fideicomiso (bank trust) in their own name."

Yea, good luck with finding a "trusted friend or relative who is Mexican"...our dad tried that, then our mom...see Francisco Hernandez Mandujano and the Blair Family to see how that turned out.

[lagrimas85]

"A foreigner purchases Ejido property by placing the Ejido title to the land in the name of a trusted friend or relative who is Mexican, called a "Prestanombre" (translation: borrowed name), who then becomes a member of the Ejido, relying on the "hope" that when, or if, the land is regularized, ownership can be converted to a fideicomiso (bank trust) in their own name."

Yea, good luck with finding a "trusted friend or relative who is Mexican"...our dad tried that, then our mom...see Francisco Hernandez Mandujano and the Blair Family to see how that turned out.
You would be shocked how many americans use prestanombres apart from being illegal if the prestanombre dies now you have to fight his heirs, so even if the prestanombre had good intentions his widow or children may not be to cooperative.

[JimMcG]

I was only offering some information and not necessarily recommending buying in an ejido, although reportedly some have been processed successfully.

Also it is not unheard of for some shirt tail ejido member to show up later claiming that he/she never agreed to the conversion.

[JimMcG]

You would be shocked how many americans use prestanombres apart from being illegal if the prestanombre dies now you have to fight his heirs, so even if the prestanombre had good intentions his widow or children may not be to cooperative.

http://sparks-mexico.com/Assorted/realestate/realestate3.htm

[lagrimas85]

I was only offering some information and not necessarily recommending buying in an ejido, although reportedly some have been processed successfully.

Also it is not unheard of for some shirt tail ejido member to show up later claiming that he/she never agreed to the conversion.
Thats why every ejido member and sometimes their children must sign off. Then it must be posted whever they have their meetings for 30 days as they also have 1st right of refusal.

[Wahoo]

http://sparks-mexico.com/Assorted/realestate/realestate3.htm

Jim, this is GOOD stuff. Thanks.
I never knew and I am sure 90% of AZ investors also do not know the LAW.

This is also very Illegal in the USA, it is called a "Straw Buyer".
I do extra due diligence to know my client and a Straw buyer has many red flags and easy to see. Nothing good can come of working with a Straw buyer, IMHO.


"If you do use the presta nombre and put the property in a Mexican nationals name and made some agreement with him or her that they are just holding the title for you, you have not only done something illegal, you have also violated a Constitutional prohibition"

[MIRAMAR]

The houses on the beach of Playa Miramar by the Mayan (which were previously owned by Ejido Miramar) are privately owned by Americans, Mexicans and Canadians w/ bank trusts since 2005. Ejido Miramar still owns a lot of land by the airport.

[Wahoo]

Taco, an ejido and a legally obtained trust is the crux of the discussion for other to use for their own research.

I know the Mayan disagreed with many at Miramar, but Miramar owners prevailed. At the time, Miramar was so far away from civilization that the ejido owners all agreed to sell to the Gringos. 10K for beach front sand. I recall it well.

The fact remains that Rocky Point and its vast lands and dunes are still mostly ejido. You even acknowledge this, who wants cholla cactus infested lands a mile away from the shore? This is still ejido for now.

What happened in Cholla was painful to many after having owned and invested in their properties (They thought) for many years. Never realizing they where squatters.

Condos are another animal since no land is sold, just Air.

[lagrimas85]

when a person buys a peice of land that was but is not anymore ejido land they are getting the cleanest titles in the world. they are brand new no history , no liens, no litigations. Just a couple of pages that state ownership not one negative post at the city registry. Its when they get into peoples hands that the problems begin. But if done right they are the cleanest titles and can stay that way. Every problem I have ever heard of in Mexico something was done wrong by the buyer and that includes the buyers in North Beach. A new title is like buying a new car you know what you got and if you take care of it it will last a long time.

[lagrimas85]

I remember years ago americans telling me they had 99 year leases on their properties in Mexico but even those are or were illegal. No lease in Mexico can go longer than 10 years and the federal government looks at them as a way for foreigners to circumvent federal land laws.

[JimMcG]

I remember years ago americans telling me they had 99 year leases on their properties in Mexico but even those are or were illegal. No lease in Mexico can go longer than 10 years and the federal government looks at them as a way for foreigners to circumvent federal land laws.

Conversely and in fairness, there are cases where "subdivisions" wherein lots and homes which were aquired on leases, bills of sale and various non trust like documents, eventually received their trusts.

[lagrimas85]

Conversely and in fairness, there are cases where "subdivisions" wherein lots and homes which were aquired on leases, bills of sale and various non trust like documents, eventually received their trusts.
Absolutley they did, not everybody In Penasco is a crook . I would say way more worked out in the favor of the buyer than not. probably close to 100%(except Cholla and even some of that wasn't Gus's fault) before the outsiders came in. The people in Penasco were mostley poor simple people that had no idea how to screw somebody, they had to get educated that way.There are still alot of noble people in Penasco and most of the crooks have gone back to where they came from both american and mexican. Good riddance to them.

[PintoPoint]

Lafrimas85,
Can I ask what happened in Cholla? My understanding is that it is under a master trust.

Rick
Cholla Bay

[lagrimas85]

In Cholla Bay,American's who had held lease agreements built and did many other improvments on "their" property were "evicted" when the owner decided not to renew the lease agreements.The property owner was entirly within his rights but in the Az. papers it was reported that the mexican govt. had taken away their properties. I know there are trusts on homes and lots in Cholla but I dont know about a master trust. (Same thing happened to my grandparents on the Fort Apache Indian Reservation they lost "their" cabin when the Apaches didn"t want to renew ridiculously cheap leases) Why would anybody build on leased land?

[PintoPoint]

lagrimas85
Thanks, I had heard about that but I am still trying to get my property seperated from the master trust. They just tell be that it is hung up with the Notory.

Rick
Cholla Bay

[lagrimas85]

I was threatend with a fraud charge years ago because a notary in Penasco and Banamex took about a year to put together a trust for a lady I had sold land to. I know it looks & feels bad but thats the process. The hold up is probably the bank as they are way understaffed.

[JimMcG]

http://www.penasco.com/cholla.html

[Roberto]

Wahoo Seza; "Until an Ejido has been transferred to private ownership, with title, there is no 100% safe way to buy Ejido property as a foreigner, although many do purchase this type of land. "

I fully agree with this statement, however as clarification remember you should distinguish between Former Ejido Property and Ejido Property

AS Lagrimis says, there is a process whereby part of or an entire Ejido can be legally dissolved and the land itself transferred to private ownership of the individual members of the Ejido. Individuals do not usually buy land directly from an Ejido. Titles are issued in the names of the members and these properties can then be sold directly to a Mexican via a title or to a non-Mexican via a Fidiecomiso or Bank Trust. In these cases the land is really no longer Ejido land at the time of sale. Former Ejido land, yes. Unfortunately these lands often continued to be informally labeled with 'Ejido XXX' a geographical identifyer, not a legal entitiy, creating the false impression that the lands are in a legal Ejido.


If the seller holds a Mexican Title on a piece of property, in his or her name, the land cannot be held in an Ejido since there are no individual titles issued on land still under an Ejido. This can occur only when the Ejido has gone through the lenghty legal process effectively dissoving the Ejido and distributing the land to the members. If there is a title, it is not Ejido land. If it is Ejido land, there will be no title.

I have seen Ejido members offering land for sale with paperwork from the Ejido identifyiing 'their' lands but as I understand it, those are 'use' documents, not ownership documents and do not permit a legal sale. A valid, registered Mexican title (or a Fidiecomiso) is the simple key to buying former Ejido land.

Yes, I have seen many titles on land at Aceves Lopez, Formerly Aceves Lopez Ejido. And yes, I have seen many Fidiecomisos issued to non Mexican buyers. And yes, I have seen more problems with land in Las Conchas than at Aceves Lopez. And yes, I know of people who bought land at Lopez Aceves under the 'trusted friend' process and had problems getting ownership.

[Wahoo]

Wahoo Seza; "Until an Ejido has been transferred to private ownership, with title, there is no 100% safe way to buy Ejido property as a foreigner, although many do purchase this type of land. "

I fully agree with this statement, however as clarification remember you should distinguish between Former Ejido Property and Ejido Property

AS Lagrimis says, there is a process whereby part of or an entire Ejido can be legally dissolved and the land itself transferred to private ownership of the individual members of the Ejido. .

And here lies the problem, the chain of title research is as good as your local Tax man working in behalf of Mexico, aka "el notario". What one thought was clear title sometimes uncovers taxes not paid or transfers not completely legal made 3 or 4 transfers ago. And so the delay starts on who has liability and the next transfer becomes muddied.

Remember, this has nothing to do with Condo's, they are a different animal, this is land. One thing to keep in mind that one does not just have the rights of an ejido, one must use the land or you lose its rights of use. You only have right of use while in an Ejido. You are right, do not confuse "former ejido with an Ejido".

Next: What happened in Cholla?