MEXICO CITY - The Mexican state of Sonora says it won't attend a decades-old cooperation meeting with Arizona this June after the passage of the state's tough immigration enforcement law.
The government of Sonora, which borders Arizona, says the move isn't ``about a breaking of relations with Arizona, but rather a way to protest the approval of the law.''
The measure makes it a crime to be an illegal immigrant and will require police to question people about their immigration status is they suspect they're in the country illegally.
Mexican President Felipe Calderon (kahl-duh-ROHN') says the law ``opens the door to intolerance, hate, discrimination and abuse in law enforcement.'' He warns trade and political ties with Arizona will be ``seriously affected,'' although he announced no concrete measures.
what? were you specting a gran receptions by the mexicans, this new law is nothing but a discriminatory ruling, are you going to tell me now that the police is going to stop illegal anglo looking people from europe, which they are thousands just in Tucson, and ask for documentation, please give yourself a break and rationalize it!! and the american people, including from Arizona, were so disgusted with the holocoust this is almost the same!!
"reasonable suspicion" how do you measure that? the only way they have is by the color of the skin and just in case you have not notice this land we live in use to belong to Mexico and when it was taken over or bought it included the hundred of thousand of Mexican, now citizens of the USA, that were living on it at the time, some eghty years ago, and their skin is still beautiful and brown with no accent or a little still no difference still USA citizens, do you know how much are they going to get harrased?
The people in Mexico as a general rule do not think of their white brothers to the North in a negative light which is not the same way they are treated bay same. These people here know that we (our family) are white only on the outside. I foresee no problems for folks coming down. Time will tell but all in all they think that the government in Arizona has come undone as in gone crazy.
When I come to Mexico I do my best to follow the rules. I pay hundreds of dollars on my FM-3 each year to be legal in Mexico. When I hire workers in Mexico I do my best to be kind to them and treat them as equals, more often than not I walk away feeling I have be cheated of taken advantage of. That being said I have met many great familys in Cholla Bay and love being down here. I wish I was asked for my FM3 once in a while by the police so I felt I got my money's worth. Comparing the bill in Arizona to the Holocust is so far from reality its had to see how that connection is made.
......Comparing the bill in Arizona to the Holocust is so far from reality its had to see how that connection is made.
I know it is far from it, however the comparition I was trying to make was based on how the natzis were looking for the jews among all the white people in Germany, which of course made it more difficult, it will be the same for the police in AZ to try to not descriminate against a Mexican-american that has no documentation other than the typical drivers license and a few credit cards, the hassle to the mexican-american community and the waste of their time is going to go noticed by all of us tax payer thru the ridicoulous amount of court dates to proof your citizenship, oh!! and in case you do not see this part, we as tax payers pay for all those court dates that are going to be a waste, IMHO, it could amount to millions, not that it already happen, just triple it!! :eek3:
I have nothing to hide and I will say it to your face, if you can not take it that is your prorrogative!!! thanks perro, van a tener que sacarse esta muela a la fuerza porque yo no me salgo tan facil!!
I read most of it untill I got tired of reading the old law that has been used for many years, the main change, if not the only one is the second entry, I believe to be paragraph B. the section where "reasonable suspicion" is in.
My new Bumper sticker....Irish American or Just Irish? if I take my bike to the 7/11 (past azbeachboys messy yard) do i have to carry ID to prove I'm not a Irish national?
Ink, did you happen to see this article? Reading your posts, I can't if you're against the bill, or just the profiling part that you feel will come with it.
you got it Bob it is not the bill that I am against, as I have said many times before I am against the attitute that the forces have against the people and the profiling that goes on and now it will go rampid with this new law, if you read the whole thing the laws have been there prety much unchange for many decades, it is the part that has been added that makes it what it is.
When I went further south and was stop by the check points in Mexico, maybe because I speak the language, I was told twice in different places that what they were looking for was guns, specially on cars coming south from the north, from USA or Canada, I was never asked for any type of documents or passport.
I am all for a way to bring the laborers in a way that they will not need to come to USA ilegally and maybe that way will cut down on the number of criminals coming since paspports and criminal records will need to be provided to be accepted in the program, simple and to the point, no more coyotes needed, will know who the bad guys are and the farm work that the white people is not willing to take over, rather be in welfare which is another burden to us all, will be all documented and will have a period to make a living then come back or go home happy to thier families and as long as you are a good boy you get remunerated, to simple for a government to comprehend? I do not know what it seems possible, what you think?
I would like to see a rally where thousands of people claimed that they are not citizens and refuse to provide documentation. What would the police do. Under the new law they would have to arrest them all and transport to jail. Transport with what and to where. Stupid law.
I also think mexico should protest and stop all import and export to and from mexico for several weeks and threaten longer if need be.
Hey what about all of the illegals going home for a month or so durring harvest time. If we had no mexican import food and no harvest labor for our fields I think the public just might see what the hispanic realy means to our life style and food sources .
More and more stupid laws will not solve the problem.
I understand some states are so short on money that they refuse to go to other state that have picked up fellons and bring them back for prosecution. And how about *** it goes on and on.
Have you ever heard what happens if you're in Mex illegally? If outsiders do not enhance the country's "economic or national interest" or are "not found to be physically or mentally healthy", they are not welcome.
Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two year's imprisonment. Have you heard what Mexico does to S. Americans that have been caught sneaking into Mex??
Try going to Europe w/o the proper documents. Try N Korea or China. You'll be lucky to see the light of day again.
I would like to see a "guest worker" program installed here so that we know who's coming in and when they're going out. Do you realize about 70% of the crime in Az is done my Illegals? Sneaking across the border "Illegally" in different from "legal".
Cheatka, all of your so-called facts are nothing but regurgitated Michelle Malkin and you (like Ms. Malkin) are wrong about Mexico. If you want to chime in on the side of those in favor of the new law, at least do so without throwing in bogus information that just proves to us all that you parrot whatever you've read most recently.
A big point has not been adressed here. Put the fear of God and police into these undocumented and crime will run rampant.
There are classes of people who prey on the weak and when the weak will not call the law for help out of fear of being deported they will be victimized. Happens quite often as it is.
.......Try going to Europe w/o the proper documents........
Cheatka, while living in Spain in the late seventies and early eighties, traveling across borders, being a Peruvian, was most problematic due to the fact that you travel 2 hours, exagerating a little, just a little, and you are in another country and had to show my passport all the time but never was deny entrance anywhere, after a while I got tired and started to say "spanish" instead and found a way to save a lot of time and always the answer was "welcome, come in" and now even better you do not even need a passport if you are a resident of any of the euro countries or need to say much for that matter.
My point is that it is very freely for anybody to come and go, then the immigrants were people from Morroco, much what Mexicans are for USA, and they had a plan, I mean the governments had aplan, they allow any number of them as long as they participated in the program, basically come work for a period of time then go back home, stay home for a period of time then you were allow back in Europe, simple and easy for everybody, as in here many people even though the majority poor they did not wanted to work the fields either so the morrocans did and life went on happily.
Anyway to make a story short, NO, you are wrong in Europe you were and still are able to travel freely legal or illegal alot easier than across the USA borders, north or south, IMHO it just my life experience!! :eek3:
I think we all agree that the federal government has not done their job with not coming up with a viable and equitable immigration policy....there are inequities in the current policy with the worker visas that are issued....for supposed skills that are not available in the US (IT and technical)....sure they're not available in the US...at the salaries that the major companies want to pay! Those visa quotas always seem to be increased whenever the companies scream (or whatever you want to call it) to their congressmen/senators.
However, I think many are making a lot of noise about the AZ bill.....which has not been implemented yet...and no one actually knows what type of abuse there will be.....if any.....it's all "ASS umptions".....almost everyone is harping on one of the points in the law... What ever happpend to the concept of law enforcement ENFORCING all the laws....local, state and federal???? Some of our elected officials (like the mayor of Phoenix) seem to think that we should pick and choose which laws our police enforce!
If nothing else, it brings the immigration issue to the forefront throughout the country, and if more states start passing some laws....the federal government may have to finally do something.
As for all these boycotts.....who will get hurt the worst..... it will be the worker types, including the Mexicans (legal or otherwise) who are working in AZ! It was funny to hear that someone was suggesting a boycott of the company that makes Arizona Tea....and it was noted on the news that the company isn't even located in AZ!!!!
Cheatka, while living in Spain in the late seventies and early eighties, traveling across borders, being a Peruvian, was most problematic due to the fact that you travel 2 hours, exagerating a little, just a little, and you are in another country and had to show my passport all the time but never was deny entrance anywhere, after a while I got tired and started to say "spanish" instead and found a way to save a lot of time and always the answer was "welcome, come in" and now even better you do not even need a passport if you are a resident of any of the euro countries or need to say much for that matter.
My point is that it is very freely for anybody to come and go, then the immigrants were people from Morroco, much what Mexicans are for USA, and they had a plan, I mean the governments had aplan, they allow any number of them as long as they participated in the program, basically come work for a period of time then go back home, stay home for a period of time then you were allow back in Europe, simple and easy for everybody, as in here many people even though the majority poor they did not wanted to work the fields either so the morrocans did and life went on happily. Anyway to make a story short, NO, you are wrong in Europe you were and still are able to travel freely legal or illegal alot easier than across the USA borders, north or south, IMHO it just my life experience!! :eek3:
Ink.....I'm not sure how accurate that statement is today....I was looking into visiting the Czech Republic and it seems that you still need to have a valid ID....whether it is a passport, or one of the ID issued by the Common Market countries....to freely move around....there are still checks at every border...because I was looking into flying into Austria or Germany and driving across to the Czech Repubulic......again that was from a cursory check of what I was able to find on the net....maybe someone who has visited RECENTLY can pipe in on that....that is....on moving across several borders......
Ink.....I'm not sure how accurate that statement is today.........
Sorry Joe, I should have mention the counrties I did visit so to make it more clear that it was not all of Europe and then as well as now some of the eastern countries always had more restrictions, it has been 28 years since so needless to say so many thing have changed too including me!! :eek3: I look like the happy blue face almost bald!! :rofl:
I didn't read most of the comments here bt here is my 10 centavos worth. Regardless of if or when or how this bill is finally implemented it has caused a firestorm of controversy regarding it.
The idea is to have people move out of the State voluntarily, I understand that, the framers of the bill made this intentional - the problem is that we are dealing with real honest to goodness people - whenever people or animals are involved there is someone out there to champion a cause.
The positive affect on Arizona will not be felt until the massive negative affect takes place. The rule is so shocking on the surface, it is so divisive at its root, anybody who is not a xenophobe can see that it will cause more harm than good in the sort to mid term run. I am apolitical. I dont care what any Government wants to do. Having said that, as this relates to business in Arizona....perception my friends is reality! The shoppers from Mexico will not shop anymore NOB. Maybe Arizona is financially strong enough for this economic suicide, but I think not.
I understand what the hoopla is about. Maybe this law starts debate, maybe it is the answer to long term immigration issues, maybe it gets rid of world hunger , whatever, it is wrong to select people by the color of their skin and commit them to some wrongdoing when they are innocent.
I drive a newer car with Sonora plates, I am white. I will be waiting to be "profiled" by the man on the other side. I will be proud to offer up the first law suit against this hypocrisy in the State where I grew up. See ya going to bed, by the way.... It was a wonderful and prosperous day here in Mexico. We have a lot going on and we are having a good time doing it. Helped my son install a stereo in his truck. coool! Gonna read a book about border issues from 30 years ago then fall gently into bliss for a few hours, hast manana. Do something good to someone else just to see how it makes you feel. Nos Vemos!
I don't come on this forums often, and when I do, I don't plan on arguing politics. Rocky Pt. is a place for sharing enjoyment of food, fish and ambiance. I can accept that there will be people here whose values and beliefs will conflict with mine. However, I feel it's important that we be honest with ourselves and each other about what's real and what's not, lest we have unnecessary conflicts due to misunderstanding.
We have a border patrol to apprehend illegal entrants in the border zone, but migrants are pretty much home free once they're past the BP's jurisdiction. The number of ICE officers is woefully inadequate to patrol the vast area of the US interior. Meanwhile we have hundreds of thousands of state and local law enforcement officials walking around, many of whom encounter illegal immigrants on a regular basis, but they've been rendered useless due to lack of statutory authority. The Arizona law merely allows them to investigate immigration violations that are fairly obvious.
Here's the current situation before the law goes into effect: Police respond to a disturbance call at a residence and find 40 people in a house that has little or no furniture, it doesn't look like there's a party going on, everyone is silent and looking a bit afraid, and the guy in the corner with his head split open says he doesn't want any medical attention. Officers have a strong suspicion the place is a drop house and that there may be abuse going on, but nobody is talking and no one wants to make a complaint, possibly because of their illegal status. Since state law doesn't empower the officers to investigate these peoples' legal status in the US, they simply leave.
Under the new law, the police can ask for documents and make arrests, effectively ending what is obviously a bad situation needing intervention.
The hysteria about racial profiling and harrassment is overblown. Unlike ICE, most local police won't actively look for immigration violators. They have little incentive to do so and many disincentives, starting with the amount of time involved in arresting and transporting them. Local cops will be expected to give higher priority to violent crimes and crimes against property. I doubt the new law will result in many arrests for illegal presence in the US. However, it could discourage more people from coming here.
The law is very clear that appearance of national origin alone is not sufficient to ask for documentation. Police and prosecutors will know they're under intense scrutiny. The risk of acquittals and civil suits based on racial profiling will discourage the kind of rampant harrassment critics say we can expect.
I cannot understand why anyone would protect the hypocritical and ineffective law enforcement approach we've taking up to now. America sends mixed messages about illegal immigration from or through Mexico, and too many Americans seem satisfied with the gridlock. Any new law or policy that is unequivocal is sure to set off a firestorm.
The current defacto policy of don't ask, don't tell exploitation and peonage is a disgrace. Both major political parties condone it, albeit for different reasons. It's time both parties were confronted with a tool that works. This is flushing the politicos out so we can see what each is made of. We've been hearing protests from the race-baiting Re-Conquistas, poverty pimps, limousine liberals from the left. From the right it's exposing the political schemers like Karl Rove, Jeb Bush, Linda Chavez and Marco Rubio, who fear this will hurt the GOP at the polls and worry more about politics than about governing). It should also expose the business, financial and political interests who want to keep prices low and the standard of living high for the visible Americans who vote.
Arizona's law is merely a referendum on US hypocrisy and gridlock at the federal level. Now somebody else needs to make a move.
I don't buy the myth that our society would collapse if all illegal workers suddenly went home. We've had it pretty good the past few decades, and our houses and waistlines are now much larger than that of generations before us. I can't help believing that somehow we would still eat and have roofs over our heads, though perhaps not in the style to which we've become accustomed as a result of exploiting an imported peonage.
It's often pointed out that we're a nation of immigrants, and many claim that today's immigration is no different from that of America's past. But despite a few spectacular exceptions we hear about, there are many indications that Latin American immigration is not following the same pattern of successful assimilation and upward mobility, possibly because emigres do not have legal status and thus have only one foot in the US and perhaps only for a limited time at that. There's a big difference between a one-way trip across an ocean for legal immigration versus a temporary excursion north leaving the family behind and planning to return. Studies have shown the majority of illegal immigrants would prefer to stay and work in their own country. That mindset is understandable and even laudable, but does not bode well for assimilation.
I could accept a solution that included amnesty for some illegal entrants who truly want to stay, but I could only do so if assured that illegal immigration was being effectively stopped. Effectively stopping illegal immigration will require that penalties for both employers and illegal immigrants be harsh and certain. That guarantees a firestorm from multiple sources, but it's what it will take.
As for Michelle Malikin's discussion of Mexico's own immigration policy, she supported her contentions with several references including government documents. Moreover, her narrative is consistent with what I've read from other sources. If these things aren't really true, Mexicans should make a concerted effort to set the record straight. In the absence of such an effort, people in the US will continue to believe that Mexico is being hypocritical in its expectations of US policy toward immigration.
Wow the cheerleaders for the state of Arizona Senate Republicans ignore the fact local law already turns these people over to the Feds without running them through the broke county justice systems.You "voices of reason" quote Michelle Malkin and refuse to admit US big business interests make a fortune off the mexican workers. 12 million already live here and are going nowhere.The states economy will be ruined by this move and that is just crazy.
As a side note I think the numbers are way down crossing in Cochise county by my place but the drug smugglers are up.I was just woken up by my dogs barking at a truck belonging to a local player parked near my property line waiting to pick something up I guess. It does get old.
Audsley have you really ever done any physical work out in the Arizona summer sun? My bet is you wouldn't last 2 hours..........get real we need a amnesty bill.
I don't come on this forums often, and when I do, I don't plan on arguing politics. Rocky Pt. is a place for sharing enjoyment of food, fish and ambiance. I can accept that there will be people here whose values and beliefs will conflict with mine. However, I feel it's important that we be honest with ourselves and each other about what's real and what's not, lest we have unnecessary conflicts due to misunderstanding.
We have a border patrol to apprehend illegal entrants in the border zone, but migrants are pretty much home free once they're past the BP's jurisdiction. The number of ICE officers is woefully inadequate to patrol the vast area of the US interior. Meanwhile we have hundreds of thousands of state and local law enforcement officials walking around, many of whom encounter illegal immigrants on a regular basis, but they've been rendered useless due to lack of statutory authority. The Arizona law merely allows them to investigate immigration violations that are fairly obvious.
Here's the current situation before the law goes into effect: Police respond to a disturbance call at a residence and find 40 people in a house that has little or no furniture, it doesn't look like there's a party going on, everyone is silent and looking a bit afraid, and the guy in the corner with his head split open says he doesn't want any medical attention. Officers have a strong suspicion the place is a drop house and that there may be abuse going on, but nobody is talking and no one wants to make a complaint, possibly because of their illegal status. Since state law doesn't empower the officers to investigate these peoples' legal status in the US, they simply leave.
Under the new law, the police can ask for documents and make arrests, effectively ending what is obviously a bad situation needing intervention.
The hysteria about racial profiling and harrassment is overblown. Unlike ICE, most local police won't actively look for immigration violators. They have little incentive to do so and many disincentives, starting with the amount of time involved in arresting and transporting them. Local cops will be expected to give higher priority to violent crimes and crimes against property. I doubt the new law will result in many arrests for illegal presence in the US. However, it could discourage more people from coming here.
The law is very clear that appearance of national origin alone is not sufficient to ask for documentation. Police and prosecutors will know they're under intense scrutiny. The risk of acquittals and civil suits based on racial profiling will discourage the kind of rampant harrassment critics say we can expect.
I cannot understand why anyone would protect the hypocritical and ineffective law enforcement approach we've taking up to now. America sends mixed messages about illegal immigration from or through Mexico, and too many Americans seem satisfied with the gridlock. Any new law or policy that is unequivocal is sure to set off a firestorm.
The current defacto policy of don't ask, don't tell exploitation and peonage is a disgrace. Both major political parties condone it, albeit for different reasons. It's time both parties were confronted with a tool that works. This is flushing the politicos out so we can see what each is made of. We've been hearing protests from the race-baiting Re-Conquistas, poverty pimps, limousine liberals from the left. From the right it's exposing the political schemers like Karl Rove, Jeb Bush, Linda Chavez and Marco Rubio, who fear this will hurt the GOP at the polls and worry more about politics than about governing). It should also expose the business, financial and political interests who want to keep prices low and the standard of living high for the visible Americans who vote.
Arizona's law is merely a referendum on US hypocrisy and gridlock at the federal level. Now somebody else needs to make a move.
I don't buy the myth that our society would collapse if all illegal workers suddenly went home. We've had it pretty good the past few decades, and our houses and waistlines are now much larger than that of generations before us. I can't help believing that somehow we would still eat and have roofs over our heads, though perhaps not in the style to which we've become accustomed as a result of exploiting an imported peonage.
It's often pointed out that we're a nation of immigrants, and many claim that today's immigration is no different from that of America's past. But despite a few spectacular exceptions we hear about, there are many indications that Latin American immigration is not following the same pattern of successful assimilation and upward mobility, possibly because emigres do not have legal status and thus have only one foot in the US and perhaps only for a limited time at that. There's a big difference between a one-way trip across an ocean for legal immigration versus a temporary excursion north leaving the family behind and planning to return. Studies have shown the majority of illegal immigrants would prefer to stay and work in their own country. That mindset is understandable and even laudable, but does not bode well for assimilation.
I could accept a solution that included amnesty for some illegal entrants who truly want to stay, but I could only do so if assured that illegal immigration was being effectively stopped. Effectively stopping illegal immigration will require that penalties for both employers and illegal immigrants be harsh and certain. That guarantees a firestorm from multiple sources, but it's what it will take.
As for Michelle Malikin's discussion of Mexico's own immigration policy, she supported her contentions with several references including government documents. Moreover, her narrative is consistent with what I've read from other sources. If these things aren't really true, Mexicans should make a concerted effort to set the record straight. In the absence of such an effort, people in the US will continue to believe that Mexico is being hypocritical in its expectations of US policy toward immigration.
This is obviously a real hot button issue. I can see both sides from the human/people standpoint. I have had undocumented Mexicans (more accurately 'fake documented' Mexicans because they all have AZ driver's licenses and Social Security cards and have shown me) who I have gotten to know and I have gotten to know their family's extremely well, became very close, who are in the US illegally. They tell me of their stories of going home (to Mexico) and sneaking back in. They tell me they send up to 50% of their income (largely untaxed as they are self-employed) back to Mexico as they have a plan with their families to buy land and build homes for their families (back in Mexico) over the next 10 years and then they will return to Mexico. By the way, one of Mexico's largest parts of their economy is untaxed dollars being sent back into Mexico from the US. Hence we pay for their healthcare, education, services, etc and much of the wages earned by the illegals are not INCOME taxed. I'm sure that is really healthy for our economy. I digress...
Back to the 'human' side of things. I really like these people. We have become friends and for that it is much more personally challenging to see the greater possibility of a possible deportation. And, I have known some that it has happened to (they are now back in the country LEGALLY, might I ad). At the same time, WE ARE A NATION OF LAWS. To Inka's point that there are 'x' amount of Europeans living in Tucson who will not be 'discriminated against' or profiled , that is such a ridiculous statement on its face. I would GUARANTEE that 99.9% of those EUROPEANS migrated to Tucson LEGALLY, meaning they have proper documentation, green cards, etc. I have a cousin who just married a Brit and he just moved to the US, just got his green card, etc. He did not sneak over the border in the dead of night, or was not transported in carved out holding compartment in the back of a pickup. He went through IMMIGRATION. Novel idea huh?? Common sense (which is completely absent in this emotional, political and phony-racial hysteria) should prevail especially when you have 15 million people here ILLEGALLY from Mexico, with AZ making up an enormous % of that. You probably aren't going to be questioning as many white Europeans (who speak English very well) as you might that of someone of apparent Mexican orientation who cannot speak a lick of English. Is that racial profiling?? Hell no. It is COMMON SENSE!! Will there be mistakes made, most definitely. There is no perfect system. But something has to be done. For those who want to get into this country LEGALLY, let's create a system to do so (which already exists but needs much more efficiency with the numbers of illegals that would apply). Let's get the tax dollars the US deserves from this group and let the newly DOCUMENTED workers pay for healthcare, services, etc like my new Brit cousin is doing.
Meandered a bit here, but would like to give credit to a much more articulate AUDSLEY above. That post is riddled with non emotional, non biased.... COMMON SENSE. Thank you for that Audsley.
......Here's the current situation before the law goes into effect: Police respond to a disturbance call at a residence and find 40 people in a house that has little or no furniture, it doesn't look like there's a party going on, everyone is silent and looking a bit afraid, and the guy in the corner with his head split open says he doesn't want any medical attention. Officers have a strong suspicion the place is a drop house and that there may be abuse going on, but nobody is talking and no one wants to make a complaint, possibly because of their illegal status. Since state law doesn't empower the officers to investigate these peoples' legal status in the US, they simply leave......
And my point is that why is it that the example used has always to do with the illegal as above, the other side of that will be that there is a disturbance call and the police arrived to fully furnished home full of people having a blast, maybe to much fun and being loud, could be in South Tucson or the Foothills for that matter, of course when the police arrived everybody is quiet, some are a bit drunk and still making themselfs very noticeable somewhere in the darkers spots of the backyard, as it ussualy happens, however it is a quinceanera and most if not all are of mexican decendency, will the police treat them the same as they will the illegals?
Now to rplarry's statement:
To Inka's point that there are 'x' amount of Europeans living in Tucson who will not be 'discriminated against' or profiled , that is such a ridiculous statement on its face. I would GUARANTEE that 99.9% of those EUROPEANS migrated to Tucson LEGALLY, meaning they have proper documentation, green cards, etc.
Sorry my english is not perfect and sometime my knowledge of words might leave a lot to desire, at least for me to be able to make myself better understood, however your statement that you bet that 99.9%.... it is also ridiculous on its face, it just shows how little you pay attention to all the whites and not all europeans speak perfect english, unless they are Brits like your cousin, there is a large community of europeans in Tucson as well as almost in every state in USA, just to mention one of those groups, Russians, not that all of them are illegal but a large number of mafia leftovers come here, and when I say HERE I mean Tucson, in a city of almost a million you mean that there is not a single illegal european, well actually by your numbers there should be .01% meaning less than ONE!!, now that is ridiculous, I can name at least 5 and those are my friends, how about the rest of people they know, you know illegals tent to gather together as we know for many reasons, perception is very decieving uh!
I agree that audsley makes a good point in being understandable and bias but also he seems to be forgotten other point to ponder, just my 5 dollars!!
Cheatka, while living in Spain in the late seventies and early eighties, traveling across borders, being a Peruvian, was most problematic due to the fact that you travel 2 hours, exagerating a little, just a little, and you are in another country and had to show my passport all the time but never was deny entrance anywhere, after a while I got tired and started to say "spanish" instead and found a way to save a lot of time and always the answer was "welcome, come in" and now even better you do not even need a passport if you are a resident of any of the euro countries or need to say much for that matter.
My point is that it is very freely for anybody to come and go, then the immigrants were people from Morroco, much what Mexicans are for USA, and they had a plan, I mean the governments had aplan, they allow any number of them as long as they participated in the program, basically come work for a period of time then go back home, stay home for a period of time then you were allow back in Europe, simple and easy for everybody, as in here many people even though the majority poor they did not wanted to work the fields either so the morrocans did and life went on happily.
Anyway to make a story short, NO, you are wrong in Europe you were and still are able to travel freely legal or illegal alot easier than across the USA borders, north or south, IMHO it just my life experience!! :eek3:
I was in Europe two yrs ago and they collected our passports when we boarded a train to go from Italy to Germany. We were told that if we didn't hand over our passports then, that when we arrived at the border at 2am the policia would come to our car to collect them. We didn't randomly get asked for them but were warned that we should carry them at all times just in case.
You also can find documentation on just how Mex treats its illegals, its not a secret!!
My firm processes FM3 applications and renewals. I have yet to see anyone be subjected to a medical report as was stated in Cheatka's post. Also, I have personally known of several Americans here who have been deported, some arrested on warrants in the U.S. In those cases, the detainees weren't mistreated at all prior to being handed over to U.S. authorities. In one case, Joe H. has been deported many times and keeps coming back. He is a street-person who has become familiar to me, the mayor and the police in Penasco. A bit of a nut case, and he seems harmless enough but they don't know what to do with him anymore.
The article you cite as backing up Malkin's claim of abuse actually makes it clear that for the most part, it is gangs and bad guys preying on those who are vulnerable as they sneak across Mexico. These aren't governmental abuses. My point isn't that other countries don't have problems, but rather that the U.S. holds itself up as an example, and therefore should act accordingly...meaning humanely.
I understand completely the concept of wanting to protect the borders and know who is getting in. The onus is on the Federal government to do just that. I do believe, however, that once in the country, people should be treated humanely. That they got in at all is a failure of the government and those people should not be treated as criminals unless they exhibit criminal behavior. I appreciated audsley's well-written post and consider it much better than anything written by Ms. Malkin, who I consider to be less than credible.
My firm processes FM3 applications and renewals. I have yet to see anyone be subjected to a medical report as was stated in Cheatka's post. Also, I have personally known of several Americans here who have been deported, some arrested on warrants in the U.S. In those cases, the detainees weren't mistreated at all prior to being handed over to U.S. authorities. In one case, Joe H. has been deported many times and keeps coming back. He is a street-person who has become familiar to me, the mayor and the police in Penasco. A bit of a nut case, and he seems harmless enough but they don't know what to do with him anymore.
The article you cite as backing up Malkin's claim of abuse actually makes it clear that for the most part, it is gangs and bad guys preying on those who are vulnerable as they sneak across Mexico. These aren't governmental abuses. My point isn't that other countries don't have problems, but rather that the U.S. holds itself up as an example, and therefore should act accordingly...meaning humanely.
I understand completely the concept of wanting to protect the borders and know who is getting in. The onus is on the Federal government to do just that. I do believe, however, that once in the country, people should be treated humanely. That they got in at all is a failure of the government and those people should not be treated as criminals unless they exhibit criminal behavior. I appreciated audsley's well-written post and consider it much better than anything written by Ms. Malkin, who I consider to be less than credible.
Rosy...on that one point, I have to disagree.....they are in the US illegally, and thus have broken a law. Doesn't that make them a "criminal".....regardless on how well they may act or work? Your statement is like saying that just because the police have not caught someone in the act of committing a crime, it is the fault of the police and therefore they should not be treated as a criminal......
Audsley have you really ever done any physical work out in the Arizona summer sun? My bet is you wouldn't last 2 hours..........get real we need a amnesty bill.
Wow, I just now noticed this one.
Have I ever done any physical work out in the Arizona summer sun? Well, yes. The six months I worked as a laborer at San Manuel probably shouldn't count because I was either in the mill or underground in the mine, so no sun was involved. However, the two months I worked as a construction laborer in Tucson got me plenty of sun. But the most rigorous work I ever did for pay was picking up hay bales and stacking them on a moving truck when I was a teenager in Missouri. The Missouri sun isn't so bad, but the humidity is brutal. For the same money, I'd rather have been picking tomatoes or doing landscaping.
Not to take anything away from Mexicans when it comes to physical endurance, but Americans who went West in the 1800s or before, or who went to war during that period, endured hardships comparable to what today's Mexican immigrants endure in their journeys to the North. If our ancestors could do it, so could we - if we needed to.
Could I work two hours in the Arizona sun in July? Yes, and occasionally I do, but at 60 I'd rather not.
All of you can continue arguing the pros and cons of the bill.....I will be relaxing with a cold margarita on the beach tomorrow.....haven't had a fix in over 2 months.....and can't take it anymore!!!!
Have I ever done any physical work out in the Arizona summer sun? Well, yes. The six months I worked as a laborer at San Manuel probably shouldn't count because I was either in the mill or underground in the mine, so no sun was involved. However, the two months I worked as a construction laborer in Tucson got me plenty of sun. But the most rigorous work I ever did for pay was picking up hay bales and stacking them on a moving truck when I was a teenager in Missouri. The Missouri sun isn't so bad, but the humidity is brutal. For the same money, I'd rather have been picking tomatoes or doing landscaping.
Not to take anything away from Mexicans when it comes to physical endurance, but Americans who went West in the 1800s or before, or who went to war during that period, endured hardships comparable to what today's Mexican immigrants endure in their journeys to the North. If our ancestors could do it, so could we - if we needed to.
Could I work two hours in the Arizona sun in July? Yes, and occasionally I do, but at 60 I'd rather not.
Ditto here.....but I'm too cheap to run down to my local Home Depot to hire someone to do my yardwork:stir:....and I'm hitting 61! We all find ways to do what we need to do....
Compared to working as a UPS package driver for 11 years, 12 hours a day all summer long, some of that fieldwork acutally looks a lot easier (especially if they start at sunrise while I had to start at 9 a.m.). Too bad the pay isn't easier.
All of you can continue arguing the pros and cons of the bill.....I will be relaxing with a cold margarita on the beach tomorrow.....haven't had a fix in over 2 months.....and can't take it anymore!!!!
Damm!!! I just got the e-mail from my customer and I will not be going this weekend it will be the 5th then!! 5 more days I was ready too!!! 2weeks is two long to wait!!
Compared to working as a UPS package driver for 11 years, 12 hours a day all summer long, some of that fieldwork acutally looks a lot easier (especially if they start at sunrise while I had to start at 9 a.m.). Too bad the pay isn't easier.
Do you have air in those vans....and I'm not talking about open doors!!!
I still remember helping my father-in-law move to Phoenix....drove cross country in his van WITHOUT airconditioning....in July....hit Flagstaff, and then it went downhill.....it was 113 in Phoenix....and my face felt like it was on fire from the "cooling breeze" coming thru the windows as we dropped every 1000 ft.
Nope, no A/C. My last year I drove package, I had a two sensor digital thermometer in the cab and in the cargo compartment. For most of the summer, the cab area would sit at 128 degrees while the cargo area never dropped below 140 degrees. Highest temperature I recorded in the cargo was 159 degrees. So seeing as those guys are on road at 9 am and work until 7-9 pm with only 1/2 hr lunch and 2 fifteen minute breaks, it's a wonder nobody has died yet. Almost every day in the summer several UPS drivers in this State go to the hospital for heat exhaustion. I was actually jealous of construction workers who started at sunup and quit at around 1 p.m. in the summer.
Now I can't complain as I drive a nice comfy tractor-trailer with killer air conditioning that I have on even in December!
But think about the cargo heat before you ship something. Maybe if more customers complained they would do something about it.
I have the utmost respect for the UPS drivers, they work very hard and have always been friendly when delivering packages. I never realized how hot it must get driving around, stopping, digging out packages and running up driveways to make a delivery. I have always given them the right of way on the road because I could only assume the pressure they must be under. I figure every little bit helps :)
Cheatka, all of your so-called facts are nothing but regurgitated Michelle Malkin and you (like Ms. Malkin) are wrong about Mexico. If you want to chime in on the side of those in favor of the new law, at least do so without throwing in bogus information that just proves to us all that you parrot whatever you've read most recently.
Rosy, would you please tell me which of the things Cheatka said are wrong. Tryng to seperate the bogus information from the truth here.
I don't come on this forums often, and when I do, I don't plan on arguing politics. Rocky Pt. is a place for sharing enjoyment of food, fish and ambiance. I can accept that there will be people here whose values and beliefs will conflict with mine. However, I feel it's important that we be honest with ourselves and each other about what's real and what's not, lest we have unnecessary conflicts due to misunderstanding.
We have a border patrol to apprehend illegal entrants in the border zone, but migrants are pretty much home free once they're past the BP's jurisdiction. The number of ICE officers is woefully inadequate to patrol the vast area of the US interior. Meanwhile we have hundreds of thousands of state and local law enforcement officials walking around, many of whom encounter illegal immigrants on a regular basis, but they've been rendered useless due to lack of statutory authority. The Arizona law merely allows them to investigate immigration violations that are fairly obvious.
Here's the current situation before the law goes into effect: Police respond to a disturbance call at a residence and find 40 people in a house that has little or no furniture, it doesn't look like there's a party going on, everyone is silent and looking a bit afraid, and the guy in the corner with his head split open says he doesn't want any medical attention. Officers have a strong suspicion the place is a drop house and that there may be abuse going on, but nobody is talking and no one wants to make a complaint, possibly because of their illegal status. Since state law doesn't empower the officers to investigate these peoples' legal status in the US, they simply leave.
Under the new law, the police can ask for documents and make arrests, effectively ending what is obviously a bad situation needing intervention.
The hysteria about racial profiling and harrassment is overblown. Unlike ICE, most local police won't actively look for immigration violators. They have little incentive to do so and many disincentives, starting with the amount of time involved in arresting and transporting them. Local cops will be expected to give higher priority to violent crimes and crimes against property. I doubt the new law will result in many arrests for illegal presence in the US. However, it could discourage more people from coming here.
The law is very clear that appearance of national origin alone is not sufficient to ask for documentation. Police and prosecutors will know they're under intense scrutiny. The risk of acquittals and civil suits based on racial profiling will discourage the kind of rampant harrassment critics say we can expect.
I cannot understand why anyone would protect the hypocritical and ineffective law enforcement approach we've taking up to now. America sends mixed messages about illegal immigration from or through Mexico, and too many Americans seem satisfied with the gridlock. Any new law or policy that is unequivocal is sure to set off a firestorm.
The current defacto policy of don't ask, don't tell exploitation and peonage is a disgrace. Both major political parties condone it, albeit for different reasons. It's time both parties were confronted with a tool that works. This is flushing the politicos out so we can see what each is made of. We've been hearing protests from the race-baiting Re-Conquistas, poverty pimps, limousine liberals from the left. From the right it's exposing the political schemers like Karl Rove, Jeb Bush, Linda Chavez and Marco Rubio, who fear this will hurt the GOP at the polls and worry more about politics than about governing). It should also expose the business, financial and political interests who want to keep prices low and the standard of living high for the visible Americans who vote.
Arizona's law is merely a referendum on US hypocrisy and gridlock at the federal level. Now somebody else needs to make a move.
I don't buy the myth that our society would collapse if all illegal workers suddenly went home. We've had it pretty good the past few decades, and our houses and waistlines are now much larger than that of generations before us. I can't help believing that somehow we would still eat and have roofs over our heads, though perhaps not in the style to which we've become accustomed as a result of exploiting an imported peonage.
It's often pointed out that we're a nation of immigrants, and many claim that today's immigration is no different from that of America's past. But despite a few spectacular exceptions we hear about, there are many indications that Latin American immigration is not following the same pattern of successful assimilation and upward mobility, possibly because emigres do not have legal status and thus have only one foot in the US and perhaps only for a limited time at that. There's a big difference between a one-way trip across an ocean for legal immigration versus a temporary excursion north leaving the family behind and planning to return. Studies have shown the majority of illegal immigrants would prefer to stay and work in their own country. That mindset is understandable and even laudable, but does not bode well for assimilation.
I could accept a solution that included amnesty for some illegal entrants who truly want to stay, but I could only do so if assured that illegal immigration was being effectively stopped. Effectively stopping illegal immigration will require that penalties for both employers and illegal immigrants be harsh and certain. That guarantees a firestorm from multiple sources, but it's what it will take.
As for Michelle Malikin's discussion of Mexico's own immigration policy, she supported her contentions with several references including government documents. Moreover, her narrative is consistent with what I've read from other sources. If these things aren't really true, Mexicans should make a concerted effort to set the record straight. In the absence of such an effort, people in the US will continue to believe that Mexico is being hypocritical in its expectations of US policy toward immigration.
My firm processes FM3 applications and renewals. I have yet to see anyone be subjected to a medical report as was stated in Cheatka's post. Also, I have personally known of several Americans here who have been deported, some arrested on warrants in the U.S. In those cases, the detainees weren't mistreated at all prior to being handed over to U.S. authorities. In one case, Joe H. has been deported many times and keeps coming back. He is a street-person who has become familiar to me, the mayor and the police in Penasco. A bit of a nut case, and he seems harmless enough but they don't know what to do with him anymore.
The article you cite as backing up Malkin's claim of abuse actually makes it clear that for the most part, it is gangs and bad guys preying on those who are vulnerable as they sneak across Mexico. These aren't governmental abuses. My point isn't that other countries don't have problems, but rather that the U.S. holds itself up as an example, and therefore should act accordingly...meaning humanely.
I understand completely the concept of wanting to protect the borders and know who is getting in. The onus is on the Federal government to do just that. I do believe, however, that once in the country, people should be treated humanely. That they got in at all is a failure of the government and those people should not be treated as criminals unless they exhibit criminal behavior. I appreciated audsley's well-written post and consider it much better than anything written by Ms. Malkin, who I consider to be less than credible.
Following this logic then, if I rob a bank, it is the govts fault for not stopping me. And I should not be treated as a criminal unless I exibit further criminal behavior.
