Beware the slide pool at the Sonoran Sky!You may end up in a 3rd world clinic!!

If you go to the Sonoran Sky please keep your children and adults away from the slide pool. On the 5th of July my best friend went down the slide and was cracked his he's open upon landing in the pool. The pool is only 4 foot deep. The slide is over 25 feet In the air and it is a two foot drop when exiting the slide and hitting the water. The slide exits the pool at an angle that point towards the wall of the pool as well. There are no lifeguards on duty and I don't believe they employ any either. They say that they are "patrolled" by lifeguards but life guards should not wear leather shoes and a safari looking outfit to save lives in water. I believe there real duty is to watch for aggressive beech peddlers and look for wristbands of guests.

After going to the clinic and having my friend leave with a concussion and 16 stitches, we returned to the condos to ask if they would at least show good will and cover the medical bills. They said they don't have insurance and do not take liability. Soooooo, remember, this is not America. They are rule less and law less in Mexico.

We rented the condo and are not owners.

Here is a video of the lovely clinic and injury.

Puerto Penasco Hotel Condo Injury - YouTube

Hi clozzzer, This is Jim, the guy that you asked about a cash settlement. I'm sorry, but intoxicated adults going down a kids slide head first don't warrant a payoff. Great dramatization and I'm glad that it was not worse but Mexico is not the place to look for ambulance chaser lawyers and fat settlements for errors in judgement. BTW, I had an emergency appendectomy at San Jose Clinic one year ago and they did a great job. Not a new facility but very clean and professional.

Jim said:

Hi clozzzer, This is Jim, the guy that you asked about a cash settlement. I'm sorry, but intoxicated adults going down a kids slide head first don't warrant a payoff. Great dramatization and I'm glad that it was not worse but Mexico is not the place to look for ambulance chaser lawyers and fat settlements for errors in judgement. BTW, I had an emergency appendectomy at San Jose Clinic one year ago and they did a great job. Not a new facility but very clean and professional.

Jim,

We did not want any "cash settlement", all we asked is for the medical bills to be paid. I recorded your underlings admiitting that this has happened before. Yes, head splitting, ambulance riding fun has happened before on this slide! The slide is not a "kids slide". It does not say it is for only children on any sign, in any pamphlat, or enforced by your "lifeguards" as a children's slide. Also, there are an equal amount of children and adults using the slide. I recorded both adults and children using the slide and can show you the video if you like. My dear friend had not been drinking either, and saying that is very insulting. In fact, the local police showed up to "examine" my friend and found him to becompletely sober. Your staff said if he would have been drinking, the police would ask for a fine. Your staff and the ambulance team said if the police ask for a fine/bribe, refuse to pay it because it was some sort of bribe. By the way, the police showed up with an automatic rifle worn around his neck; kinda strange for a medical call. The clinic you called for him did do a good job stitching him up, but hygiene was not up to par as far as I am concerned. Many people were riding double, backwards, forwards, in three's, with tubs and other various things. I also witnessed several instances were adults and children were on the bottom of the slide, in the pool, and we're struck by someone coming down the slide. This slide is conpletly unsafe. The pool is too shallow for a slide that large. You have no one watching the slide either. You will say you have folks watching the slide. The fact is the person watching the slide is also watching 4 swimming pools, 3 jacuzzis, the workout room, the water slide and the entire beach front of your condos. This same person is not wearing swimming gear, and is in clothes not typical of any lifeguard I have ever seen; leather shoes, large sun hat, and some sort of safari outfit.

Your right, Mexico is a different sort of place; the sort of place where you can have a large 15 story building with a large guest count and absolutely no safety plans in place to protect your guest. It is also a place where when you ask a manager for the decency to pay a medical bill that was trully the negligence of the property, you will be laughed at and told no.

Shame on you Jim. Shame on you for not having the discipline to know whats right from wrong and "step up", be a leader, and put systems in Place to protect your guest. Just because In Mexico there is no laws in place to help injured victims of corporations who opperate in a reckless manner collect damages for medical bills and such, doesn't mean that you just leave it up to chance and put everyone at risk who enters your property because you can't be sued. Great attitude. This attitude shines thru very well!

Just think, if the expected service of having a qualified person watch over our loved ones is not there, think about what else is not being taken care of. My imagination runs wild with what else is not being taken care of. I have thought about doing a documentary on Sonoran properties safety and maintaance. It might be a very big eye opener.

Shame on you Jim for letting us all down.

clozzzer said:

If you go to the Sonoran Sky please keep your children and adults away from the slide pool. On the 5th of July my best friend went down the slide and was cracked his he's open upon landing in the pool. The pool is only 4 foot deep. The slide is over 25 feet In the air and it is a two foot drop when exiting the slide and hitting the water. The slide exits the pool at an angle that point towards the wall of the pool as well. There are no lifeguards on duty and I don't believe they employ any either. They say that they are "patrolled" by lifeguards but life guards should not wear leather shoes and a safari looking outfit to save lives in water. I believe there real duty is to watch for aggressive beech peddlers and look for wristbands of guests.

After going to the clinic and having my friend leave with a concussion and 16 stitches, we returned to the condos to ask if they would at least show good will and cover the medical bills. They said they don't have insurance and do not take liability. Soooooo, remember, this is not America. They are rule less and law less in Mexico.

We rented the condo and are not owners.

Here is a video of the lovely clinic and injury.

Puerto Penasco Hotel Condo Injury - YouTube

I do hope your friend is recovering...

A "little" over dramatization on the video????? But where's the "rest of the story"? No clip of the pool or slide??? Third world clinic???...the video showed what looked like a clean facility.....did your friend get an infection? Did they take care of him?

This is a perfect example of what I see that we, as a society, have become....nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.....it's somebody else's responsibility to watch out for my safety (or my kids)! Do any of the resorts actually have "lifeguards"? I didn't think they did...... If something doesn't look safe to use....why use it????

BTW...Jim is Director of Sales for the resort (condos)....not the HOA head or rental agent. I've never seen the Sonoran Resorts advertised as "hotel" condos....

Jim said:

Hi clozzzer, This is Jim, the guy that you asked about a cash settlement. I'm sorry, but intoxicated adults going down a kids slide head first don't warrant a payoff. Great dramatization and I'm glad that it was not worse but Mexico is not the place to look for ambulance chaser lawyers and fat settlements for errors in judgement. BTW, I had an emergency appendectomy at San Jose Clinic one year ago and they did a great job. Not a new facility but very clean and professional.

The Clinic San Jose is a very good choice if you need medical attention while in Penasco.

Unfortunately, over the past 30 years we have been to all of the clinics and the Hospitial numerous times.

The young Doctor in the Video, operated on my finger about six weeks ago. Had a inch long sliver of wood about 3/8" x 3/8 go under my pinkie nail, up to the knuckle. Couldn't dig it out for anything.

He was great.

Earlier this year, one of my daughter's friends got a piece of shell lodged in her eye, way in the back, kind of stuck in the eyeball. Again, we couldn't get it out for anything. A very nice young female Doctor was able to remove it. She was extremely professional and was able to put her at ease immediately, very personable.

I can't remember the name of the place, but it is kind of across the Street from Portugal's office, on the Ace Hardware Street; about five years ago, I had an ATV wreck, they were able to put me back together enough to get home the next day. Looks kind of old from the outside, but the Doctor's were great. If I remember the Surgeon's name I will post it later. Kind of a taller, thin fellow. Great guy, excellent surgeon.

Sorry for the long post, but, in my opinion, the level of care in Penasco for Emergency Medicine, is pretty darn good.

I hope your friend heals well and gets better----- But I must say I agree with RP Joe-------- Take some responsibility for your own actions!!! Look at the slide, assess the risk- decide for yourself if should use it...... We need less regualtion and rules-- not more.
The Governor of California is jogging with his dog along a nature

trail. A coyote jumps out and attacks the Governor's dog, then bites the *

Governor. *


1. The Governor starts to intervene, but reflects upon the movie *

*"Bambi" and then realizes he should stop because the coyote is only *

doing what is natural. *


2. He calls animal control . Animal Control captures the coyote *

*and bills the State $200, testing it for diseases and $500 for relocating *

it. *



3. He calls a veterinarian. The vet collects the dead dog and bills the State $200 testing it for diseases. *


4. The Governor goes to hospital and spends $3,500 getting checked for diseases from the coyote and on getting his bite wound bandaged. *



5. The running trail gets shut down for 6 months while Fish & Game conducts a $100,000 survey to make sure the area is now free of dangerous animals. *



6. The Governor spends $50,000 in state funds implementing a *

"coyote awareness program" for residents of the area. *


7. The State Legislature spends $2 million to study how to better *

treat rabies and how to permanently eradicate the disease throughout the world. *


8. The Governor's security agent is fired for not stopping the *

attack. The State spends $150,000 to hire and train a new agent with *

additional special training re: the nature of coyotes. *


9. PETA protests the coyote's relocation and files a $5 million suit *

against the State. *


Arizona:

The Governor of Arizona is jogging with her dog along a nature *

trail. A Coyote jumps out and attacks her dog. *

1. The Governor shoots the coyote with her State-issued pistol and keeps jogging. The Governor has spent $0.50 on a .45 ACP hollow point cartridge.



2. The Buzzards eat the dead coyote. *



And that, my friends, is why California is broke and Arizona is not. *

Are you kidding me?

And that, my friends, is why California is broke and Arizona is not. *

Are you kidding me? Where are you getting your info? How can you call 3.2 B in debt for 2010-2011, "is not"?
.http://www.ospb.state.az.us/documents/2010/ArizonaBudgetStatus2010.pdf

About 10 years ago while at Balboa's restaurant, my father ended up in Clinica Santa Fe after a whale bone (yes, whale bone rib), fell and hit him in the head (they were hanging for decoration on the outdoors deck). He spent the night in the hospital with a nurse and doctor by his side. He then went to Mayo Clinic for follow up and they said the Mexican doctor did everything correctly. Like someone says, it's not the prettiest hospital, but the care of the nurses and doctor were great- the bill was $110.

I don't see what the long discourse provided by Tedram has to do with this thread....sorry Tedram, I think I saw the "proverb" previously with the Texas Governor being the coyote shooter.....

Kenny, I believe there was no deficit in FY 2012 (current year), and the budget for FY2013 was projected with a surplus (still in some disarray due to funding maneuvering, including possible illegal shifting of the mortgage settlement $$$)....

rockyptjoe said:

I don't see what the long discourse provided by Tedram has to do with this thread....sorry Tedram, I think I saw the "proverb" previously with the Texas Governor being the coyote shooter.....

Kenny, I believe there was no deficit in FY 2012 (current year), and the budget for FY2013 was projected with a surplus (still in some disarray due to funding maneuvering, including possible illegal shifting of the mortgage settlement $$$)....

I know their "cooking" the books, and cutting huge amounts from critical services and education, but were no where near being flush in the State of AZ, and we haven't been for many years.

And by the way, the video clips shown in the video were all taken from the incident, and no video was taken from any sort of "clip art" or archived video.

I totally understand and am certain other people do as well, and really hope your friend recovers. Head wounds like that bleed very bad and he is lucky there was no damage to the spinal cord. He'll have a scar which will make for a good story if and when he loses his hair. Short story...I, not long ago had carnitas at a place in Chandler, AZ while on vacation in AZ and ended up getting really, really sick, I was crying and screaming among other things and my significant other was beyond traumatized! It was like that scene from the movie "Like water for chocolate" where everyone was puking but minus the group of people. I will spare you the ugly and gory agony of it all, trust me it was not pretty. I had assumed the risk of ordering and eating the delicious carnitas but was very perturbed that I got sick. So I went back to the restaurant and told them they needed to reimburse me for the $50.00 I had spent on dinner and they somewhat politely told me to go pound sand. I even blindly threatened to barf all over their front step if they did not take responsibility and reimburse me but alas that was a lie as the 3 previous days had taken all I could give. So I decided to google the FDA and consult with them, they informed me that pork needs to be cooked to an internal temperature of 145° F (63° C), with a 3 minute rest time. Link here Safe Eats - Meat, Poultry & Seafood I asked the FDA lady and even called the restaurant that made me sick and asked them why should I have to have a culinary degree to ascertain whether what I was eating at a restaurant was safe to eat. Surely, I should not have to have higher education to simply eat at a restaurant. Everyone, including our waitress and busboy and everyone else there was eating and having a great time, so why was I the one to get the aztec two step?

So please be aware of the dangers of eating carnitas, and warn your friends as well, as I did not fully understand the risks of what can happen when pork is not cooked to 145 degrees and then have a 3 minute rest time, unless you have a culinary degree in which case, you're good to go.

So in closing please be very careful and think twice before eating carnitas and as an adult going down a children's slide into a children's pool. Stay safe my friends.

clozzzer said:

Good evening,

It seems like everyone is missing my intention of this post entirely. I think that you have proceived that I have said something derogatory about the clinic. I feel that the clinic is fine and the doctor well skilled. My comment on the heading on the post was saying not to go down the slide or you could end up in a 3rd world clinic. The fact is, Mexico is a 3rd world country and we ended up at a clinic in a 3rd world country. Understand? You say that people should accept resposibility for their actions and look at the risk and decide if it out weighs the reward. Well, when my friend came to the slide he decided to go down it, so I guess he assumed the risk right? What you, my friend and I didn't realize is that a landing pool on a slide that is only 4 foot deep is not enough water to safely stop someone from getting hurt. In fact, a short. "google" found that a 20 foot slide with a 2 foot drop from the bottom of the slide to the pool should have a landing pool with a minimum depth of 6 foot. Remember, the landing pool at the Sonoran sky is only 4 foot. Should anyone of us really be required to carry engineering specifications on slide velocity around to local pools and water parks? The answer is obviously no. You go to a nice condo/ resort and you EXPECT this has been done for you. Yes, my friend went done the slide head first. Many others were doing the same thing. Others did not seem to be in pain or receive injury; so to all the kids and adults, this seemed like the thing to do. It seemed like an ordinary practice at this slide pool. Guards/lifeguards looked on and did not seem to worry or show signs of concern either.

As far as being accused of " over dramatizing" the video, I assure you that this video was mild compared to the real emotion, crys and screams from his 3 young children and grave concern in the air from is traumatized wife. My kids were crying, and others were deeply disturbed by the vision of my friends blood oozing from his head. It was like Greg Louganis slammed his head into the diving board during the 1988 Seoul Olympics ( minus the homosexual and HIV part) as the blood was thick in the water. Comparatively, it was like a small shark attack. If anyone has witnessed a large head injury, you understand what I mean. The head really sprays a lot of blood, fast! You say I dramatized the event and I assure you that I censored you from the horror and agony of it all.

So my friend ended up going to the ER in AZ as his head was severely swollen in the face region. He didn't even look like him self. He was all puffed up like a marshmallow. We are waiting for his ultimate recovery and end to the pain.

With what I have explained and shown you of the dangers of the little slide of horror, it is now on you if you will want to allow your loved ones on the contraption of danger. Remember, we did not fully understand the "risks" of the slide and did not know anything of what I have shown you. Now it is on you to decide and to weigh out your "risk".

OMG...overdramatization????? If the video didn't meet that description, this post sure did!!! Are you a novelist (fiction???)...or a screenwriter??

I don't doubt that if his head was bleeding that there was concern from his family.....

BTW, maybe you could provide some of those Google references....I did a "short" search myself....and alll I found indicate a minimum pool depth of 3.5 to 4 ft. I'm not doubting that the sources exist...but I sure couldn't find them in a "short" google search! One of the problems with a 6 ft. depth is that most people would not be able to stand once they surfaced.... particularly kids....I dont ever recall that type of situation when I've used a water slide...even at the water parks! I was able to immediately stand with my head above water after surfacing. It would appear that your friend didn't have a problem with the depth....maybe he had a problem with his "carry" coming off the slide, crashing into a wall?????

How about some of the other points that others have made on here??? Did you and he read the rental contract....and any liability disclaimers? Were there actually "lifeguards"...or just security staff? What was posted outside the pool, or did anybody take the time to read the signs? Any accident that occurs is tragic....I'm not making light of that. But blaming the Resort, or Jim for not reimbursing the medical expenses? And the comment about the police showing up with an automatic weapon, and your fear that a bribe would be required???? This "contraption of danger/slide of horror".....I'd be interested in finding out how many accidents have occurred at the Sonoran Sky as a result of this particular slide......

Total overdramatization!!

rockyptjoe said:

OMG...overdramatization????? If the video didn't meet that description, this post sure did!!! Are you a novelist (fiction???)...or a screenwriter??

I don't doubt that if his head was bleeding that there was concern from his family.....

BTW, maybe you could provide some of those Google references....I did a "short" search myself....and alll I found indicate a minimum pool depth of 3.5 to 4 ft. I'm not doubting that the sources exist...but I sure couldn't find them in a "short" google search! One of the problems with a 6 ft. depth is that most people would not be able to stand once they surfaced.... particularly kids....I dont ever recall that type of situation when I've used a water slide...even at the water parks! I was able to immediately stand with my head above water after surfacing. It would appear that your friend didn't have a problem with the depth....maybe he had a problem with his "carry" coming off the slide, crashing into a wall?????

How about some of the other points that others have made on here??? Did you and he read the rental contract....and any liability disclaimers? Were there actually "lifeguards"...or just security staff? What was posted outside the pool, or did anybody take the time to read the signs? Any accident that occurs is tragic....I'm not making light of that. But blaming the Resort, or Jim for not reimbursing the medical expenses? And the comment about the police showing up with an automatic weapon, and your fear that a bribe would be required???? This "contraption of danger/slide of horror".....I'd be interested in finding out how many accidents have occurred at the Sonoran Sky as a result of this particular slide......

Total overdramatization!!

I appreciate your concern regarding the request for thelink to the pool slide guide. Below is title 77, and it just so happens to address our debacle. The link for this guide is :
Section 820

You are correct in saying that a slide needs only 4 feet of water in the plunge pool. The sky however allowed a 24-30" drop of the end of the pool. This means 6 foot of plunge. It can slop up after the plunge.

I have highlighted the passages of value.


[hr]
Section 820.250 Slides

a) General Requirements

1) Structure. All slides shall be designed and constructed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions to carry the anticipated load. Plans for water slides shall be signed and sealed by a structural engineer licensed to practice in Illinois.

2) Steps. Slide steps shall be slip-resistant and have a minimum tread of 2 inches and a minimum length of 12 inches. The riser height of the steps shall not exceed 12 inches. Specific requirements that apply to water slides are included in subsection (b)(1) of this Section.

3) Plunge Pools. Plunge pools shall comply with Sections 820.200 and 820.210 except that, for a plunge pool for a water slide, a deck is not required where the slide exits into the pool.

b) Water Slides

1) Design and Construction. All curves, turns, and tunnels on the path of a flume shall be designed and constructed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

2) Walkways. Walkways or stairs leading to the top of water slides shall be slip-resistant, rigid, and have a 4 feet minimum clear width.

3) Slide Position.

A) A flume shall be perpendicular to the pool wall for a distance of at least 10 feet from the exit end of the slide. The last 10 feet of the flume shall have a slope that is not steeper than one foot in 10.

B) A flume shall terminate between a depth of 6 inches below to 2 inches above the pool water surface level.

C) The plunge area water depth shall be between 2½ and 4 feet at the end of the flume and for at least 10 feet beyond. The pool floor slope in the plunge area shall not exceed one foot vertical in 12 feet horizontal.

4) Surge Reservoir. A surge storage reservoir shall be provided except where the pool water elevation will not be lowered more than one inch when the water slide pumps are in operation. The surge reservoir shall not be accessible to the public.

5) Plunge Area. There shall be a slide plunge area extending at least 5 feet on either side of the centerline of the slide terminus and 25 feet in front of the slide. This area shall not infringe on the plunge area for any other slides or diving equipment. Steps shall not infringe on this area. A water slide plunge area in a swimming pool shall be roped off from the rest of the pool when the slide is in operation. A means of egress shall be provided near the side of the plunge area opposite the flume terminus.

6) Grates. The intake openings for water pumped from a beach must be covered by grating that cannot be removed without the use of tools. The grate openings shall be at least four times the area of the intake pipe or have an open area so that the maximum velocity of the water passing through the grate does not exceed 1½ feet per second. The maximum width of the grate openings shall be ½ inch. Pump suction intakes at a beach shall be located or protected so as to be inaccessible to bathers.

c) Drop Slides

1) Slide Position. A slide landing area shall extend at least 5 feet on either side of the centerline of the slide terminus and 20 feet in front of the slide. This area shall not infringe on the landing area for any other slides or diving equipment. Steps shall not infringe on this area.

2) Water Depth. The water depth directly below the slide discharge point and for a distance of 12 feet beyond shall comply with the following requirements:



3) Platform Height. The drop slide platform shall not exceed 12 feet in height, measured above the water level in the plunge area.

d) Other Slides

1) A slide plunge area shall extend at least 3½ feet on either side of the centerline of the slide terminus and 20 feet in front of the slide. This area shall not infringe on the landing area for any other slides, water slides, drop slides, or diving equipment.

2) Unless the slide is designed by the manufacturer for safe exits at lesser water depths, the water depth and slide exit height above the water shall be in accordance with the following table. The exit height shall not exceed 48 inches above the water surface.



3) Slides shall be positioned so that any water flowing off the end of the slide terminus drops into the pool.

4) Handrails. Slides shall be equipped with handrails to aid the slider in safely making the transition from the ladder to the runway. Handrails shall begin at a point no more than 4 feet above the pool deck.

(Source: Amended at 34 Ill. Reg. 2698, effective February 3, 2010)

Here is a link to a video of the slide that I found on you tube. You can clearly see the slide exits over 24" above the water and does not exit perpendicular. in fact, the kid crashes into the side of the pool in this video.

The Sonoran Sky has a Slide for Kids to enjoy!! - YouTube

Thank you for the link...I looked at several links I found, and they all talked 3.5 to 4 ft......

I also note in your link the following statement "2) Unless the slide is designed by the manufacturer for safe exits at lesser water depths".................

But.... you have a problem with your whole thread...first, you mentioned in your original post that the slide was 25 ft. high, then elsewhere it's 20 ft.....based on the number of steps up and the height of the kids using it, it appears to be in the range of 12-15 ft. high, and closer to the 12 ft......and then if you look at the video YOU found...it clearly states it's a KID's slide!!!

I'll agree that the exit is much too close to the side wall of the pool, and not an ideal angle....but the kids (note...kids) using it appear to have no problem with crashing into the wall head first....oh, that's right...the large kid coming down also didn't go head first, did he? So, you have an adult, and from your video, he was not a smaller male, used a slide meant for kids, and went down head first.....

I haven't been to the SKY, but isn't there an open slide at the Sonoran Spa and doesn't it have some kind of sign indicating it's for kids only?

I feel for your friend and his family....it sucks having an accident when you're on vacation with your family....but let's go back to "responsibility".....just maybe he had no business being on the slide (even if other adults were seen using it)....he went down head first.....and maybe he should have watched what happened when someone larger went down the slide (how far they carried towards the wall) before using the slide, especially head first????? Maybe????

Coming soon to a condo "hotel" in Penasco......taking applications for ambulance chasing attorneys!!!!

Whether he should have used the slide or not, whether it is constructed according to appropriate engineering specs or not, whether it is something meant for children or not, whether the clinic gave good care or not, whether it's a third world clinic or not, one thing that would have avoided this ongoing debate would have been outstanding customer service that would have reimbursed the guest for the fee charged at the clinic whether required to or not. Negative advertising by word of mouth from their experience that THEY feel was unacceptable will undoubtably cost more than the bill from the clinic. Being right isn't always profitable. And yes I agree the guest should have more sense than to come down the slide head first, but this for a small amount could have ended on a positive note.

interesting read... reminded me of my own brush with pool slides at my own home in the 90's. Great day BBQ'ing with friends and making new friends. Enjoying the pool and the slide as we had for over 5 years all year around... until a guest of a coworker reported she hit her nose on the pool bottom after using the slide. She did have a small red mark but she had no complaints and stayed until late that evening enjoying the BBQ and day. Well about 3 months later I get a call asking for my insurance information.... well I guess she had gotten a nose job and assumed my insurance would be paying for it. Well didn't happen as she planned, she attempted to sue me, builder, slide manufacturer, et al for medical bills, pain and suffering (she went out dancing with her roommate that same night?), lost wages (she was and unemployed college student?), she hired several experts to come evaluate my pool slide and etc (cost about $2000 for the 3 "experts" to evaluate and decided my slide was 2" too high above the water line... blah blah blah) ended up requesting about $50,000 in her suit. Well the 2K nose job just got a larger price tag! Well my insurance would have covered up to 5K in my policy just for having an accident on my property but since she went the extra mile to attempt to get more than just a free nose job they said new we will just go to court. And karma is a bitch because I won the case and she was left with paying for her own cosmetic nose job, pool "experts" evaluation fee, and court costs..... her simple nose job ended up costing her probably 3x as much and a lot of wasted time. I since have never had another slide at any of my pools after that "fun" experience! ...

I stayed at the Sky several years ago and my grandkids worethe slide out while we were there and never got injured. I wanted to go downthe slide, in fact my granddaughter ask me to go with her but it was obviously designedfor kids and kids were using it so I knew better. Also since I was in the poolcatching them so they could make it to the edge I knew it was too shallow foran adult. Maybe I knew better because of the many times when I was younger Ilearned what happened when I didn’t think. Age does that to us old people ittakes us longer to heal. If I rode a jet ski and fell off and got hurt I wouldnot ask the owner of the jet ski to be responsible because I wasn’t warned ofthe risk. When I was there 2 weeks ago a kid got stung by jellyfish should theresort pay for the medical treatment? If so where do you draw the line?

Speaking of bottom feeder's, did anyone ever see when that crazy dude that was driving into a small plastic kids pools on america got talent? He opened the door so i did not HIJACK this thread.

az-dan said:

If I rode a jet ski and fell off and got hurt I wouldnot ask the owner of the jet ski to be responsible because I wasn’t warned ofthe risk. When I was there 2 weeks ago a kid got stung by jellyfish should theresort pay for the medical treatment? If so where do you draw the line?

That kind of wisdom will probably be lost on most...

clozzzer said:

...My comment on the heading on the post was saying not to go down the slide or you could end up in a 3rd world clinic. The fact is, Mexico is a 3rd world country and we ended up at a clinic in a 3rd world country. Understand? You say that people should accept resposibility for their actions and look at the risk and decide if it out weighs the reward. Well, when my friend came to the slide he decided to go down it, so I guess he assumed the risk right?

So, to summarize:

You knew Mexico was a third world country, yet you decided to travel there.

While there, your friend exercised some personal judgement to go down the slide without properly evaluating the potential risks beforehand.

You want to "blame" the design of the slide for your friend's poor judgement.

Well, you KNEW Mexico was third world... so why did you expect 1st world Design and Engineering Standards? I mean cripes- there was a 50/50 chance that the whole slide was going to collapse as your friend climbed the ladder, right?... you were in a 3rd world country, after all....


Bottom line- your friend's poor judgement was the ONLY reason your friend was injured.


Asking someone else to pay for the inevitable consequences of your own poor judgement is ridiculous.

Better you should ask them to maybe hang a sign warning people above 100 pounds not to go down the slide, lest they suffer similar consequences... yes?

Only one question: What was the "victims" Blood Alcohol Percentage (BAC %) before he went down the slide? Case closed!

Johnny said:

Only one question: What was the "victims" Blood Alcohol Percentage (BAC %) before he went down the slide? Case closed!

Look at the Key words this fool used to promote that video... so there was a kidnapping by the zeta cartel and someone was murdered... dang I missed that part of the video... did anyone else see the zeta cartel, the kidnapping and the murder..?

• Rocky
  
• point
  
• puerto
  
• penasco
  
• cartels
  
• zeta
  
• kidnapping
  
• murder
  
• hospital
  
• doctor
  
• beach
  
• cruise
  

Did you really think that I though that anyone on this site would really approve of the thread I posted on this site? You all have a vested interest in making sure people feel SAFE coming to Rocky Point. Right. It might make people feel safer to know that someone is watching out for the safety of the guests who come to enjoy a carefree vacation. It seems that none of you really understand how the real world operates. Laws and regulations are here to protect us from ourselves. The pool slide was not for just children. I have a photo of the pool slide rules, written in only Spanish, and it does not say anything about a childs pool or children only.

Now tell us Mark....how did you REALLY feel about the video??? :rofl:

JGattheSea said:

interesting read... reminded me of my own brush with pool slides at my own home in the 90's. Great day BBQ'ing with friends and making new friends. Enjoying the pool and the slide as we had for over 5 years all year around... until a guest of a coworker reported she hit her nose on the pool bottom after using the slide. She did have a small red mark but she had no complaints and stayed until late that evening enjoying the BBQ and day. Well about 3 months later I get a call asking for my insurance information.... well I guess she had gotten a nose job and assumed my insurance would be paying for it. Well didn't happen as she planned, she attempted to sue me, builder, slide manufacturer, et al for medical bills, pain and suffering (she went out dancing with her roommate that same night?), lost wages (she was and unemployed college student?), she hired several experts to come evaluate my pool slide and etc (cost about $2000 for the 3 "experts" to evaluate and decided my slide was 2" too high above the water line... blah blah blah) ended up requesting about $50,000 in her suit. Well the 2K nose job just got a larger price tag! Well my insurance would have covered up to 5K in my policy just for having an accident on my property but since she went the extra mile to attempt to get more than just a free nose job they said new we will just go to court. And karma is a bitch because I won the case and she was left with paying for her own cosmetic nose job, pool "experts" evaluation fee, and court costs..... her simple nose job ended up costing her probably 3x as much and a lot of wasted time. I since have never had another slide at any of my pools after that "fun" experience! ...

AHHHH---- Sounds just like my CA vs AZ Analogy .......

JGattheSea said:

interesting read... reminded me of my own brush with pool slides at my own home in the 90's. Great day BBQ'ing with friends and making new friends. Enjoying the pool and the slide as we had for over 5 years all year around... until a guest of a coworker reported she hit her nose on the pool bottom after using the slide. She did have a small red mark but she had no complaints and stayed until late that evening enjoying the BBQ and day. Well about 3 months later I get a call asking for my insurance information.... well I guess she had gotten a nose job and assumed my insurance would be paying for it. Well didn't happen as she planned, she attempted to sue me, builder, slide manufacturer, et al for medical bills, pain and suffering (she went out dancing with her roommate that same night?), lost wages (she was and unemployed college student?), she hired several experts to come evaluate my pool slide and etc (cost about $2000 for the 3 "experts" to evaluate and decided my slide was 2" too high above the water line... blah blah blah) ended up requesting about $50,000 in her suit. Well the 2K nose job just got a larger price tag! Well my insurance would have covered up to 5K in my policy just for having an accident on my property but since she went the extra mile to attempt to get more than just a free nose job they said new we will just go to court. And karma is a bitch because I won the case and she was left with paying for her own cosmetic nose job, pool "experts" evaluation fee, and court costs..... her simple nose job ended up costing her probably 3x as much and a lot of wasted time. I since have never had another slide at any of my pools after that "fun" experience! ...

You can't find diving boards at most public pools anymore because of the liability issues....

Seadweller said:

... did anyone else see the zeta cartel, the kidnapping and the murder..?

Well I was not going to mention it, but at about 15 frames in if you look very carefully you will get a quick glimpse (about 1/2 of a frame) of a shadow cast over the slider. The form of the shadow is a distinct Z. that's enough proof for me that the Zetas were involved and since they are a cartel and they murder and kidnap a lot that ties in too. The rest of the keywords are obvious, except the cruise, I just don't get that one. I think he should have added: Blood, Stitches, gore, and stupidity.

Roberto said:

Well I was not going to mention it, but at about 15 frames in if you look very carefully you will get a quick glimpse (about 1/2 of a frame) of a shadow cast over the slider. The form of the shadow is a distinct Z. that's enough proof for me that the Zetas were involved and since they are a cartel and they murder and kidnap a lot that ties in too. The rest of the keywords are obvious, except the cruise, I just don't get that one. I think he should have added: Blood, Stitches, gore, and stupidity.

and don't forget "over exaggeration" "drama" and "lies"... yeah, using "cruise" didn't float with me, I just didn't sea it, that's why I said "lies"

These were key words. It is not saying that these items exist in rp. They are just highly searched key words. It is basic search engine optimization.

I don't know, maybe it is just me but any slide I have a chance to get hurt on sounds like a great slide to me. See you on my next trip Sonoran Sky!

The movie by the way is a little over the top.

clozzzer said:

These were key words. It is not saying that these items exist in rp. They are just highly searched key words. It is basic search engine optimization.

WoW... I didn't know that, Thanks for the idea... The next time I do a video of one of our charity events I'll use those keywords... That will bring a lot more attention to "Food Distribution in the Barrios" and "Esperanza Para Los Ninos"... Do you work at MSNBC..?

clozzzer said:

These were key words. It is not saying that these items exist in rp. They are just highly searched key words. It is basic search engine optimization.

Dude, seriously, what you did is not basic SEO, what you are doing by using keywords that have nothing to do with your posted video is called keyword stuffing. Not cool by the way. Most of the people on this forum are here because they have an affinity for Puerto Penasco and or Mexico so the keyword stuffing you did that had nothing to do with the video other than possibly to increase the views on youtube for your post does more harm than good. You did not keyword stuff your other vacation nightmare video...Lake Havasu Houseboat Nightmare Labor Day Spring Break (DON"T CLICK IT, it is nothing more than 15 minutes of whiny drivel about a rented houseboat.) So do everyone a favor, including yourself, and correct your tags for the video you posted to be accurate. Look, you as a newbie on this forum obviously did not receive a warm welcome simply because as adults most people take responsibility for their actions good and bad and it totally sucks your friend got hurt and I'm certain everybody hopes he heals up quickly as it could have been worse. But to make a dramatic video to portray your editing skills (not bad by the way) and then to stuff keywords to increase views and do more harm than good makes you a tool. I'm sure it sounded good at the time but not so much now, I'm guessing. FYI, it would be quite a bit more advantageous to put those editing skills into something positive for Penasco of which there is way too much to list. Just my 2 cents.

On a side note, I was going to keyword stuff this post with spider food but decided against it.

Estero said:

Dude, seriously, what you did is not basic SEO, what you are doing by using keywords that have nothing to do with your posted video is called keyword stuffing. Not cool by the way. Most of the people on this forum are here because they have an affinity for Puerto Penasco and or Mexico so the keyword stuffing you did that had nothing to do with the video other than possibly to increase the views on youtube for your post does more harm than good. You did not keyword stuff your other vacation nightmare video...Lake Havasu Houseboat Nightmare Labor Day Spring Break (DON"T CLICK IT, it is nothing more than 15 minutes of whiny drivel about a rented houseboat.) So do everyone a favor, including yourself, and correct your tags for the video you posted to be accurate. Look, you as a newbie on this forum obviously did not receive a warm welcome simply because as adults most people take responsibility for their actions good and bad and it totally sucks your friend got hurt and I'm certain everybody hopes he heals up quickly as it could have been worse. But to make a dramatic video to portray your editing skills (not bad by the way) and then to stuff keywords to increase views and do more harm than good makes you a tool. I'm sure it sounded good at the time but not so much now, I'm guessing. FYI, it would be quite a bit more advantageous to put those editing skills into something positive for Penasco of which there is way too much to list. Just my 2 cents.

On a side note, I was going to keyword stuff this post with spider food but decided against it.

I understand and respect your point on the keyword stuffing. I actually made the video as a memory for my friend when he feels better and heels up. The slide really is dangerous. Again, it is dangerous. Everyone on here has this crazy opinion that buyer beware, assume your risk, it your fault because you went down it, and the general philosophy that what ever happens in Mexico is unsanctioned from the general rules of safety. When people go down the slide, they didn't sign up for a slide of danger. You said it before, it is a children slide. It is a slide that should not be dangerous for children and adults to enjoy. They have had other injurie related to this slide with people young and old according to the staff at the condos. In the spirit of good for man kind, the should post weight limits on riders, enforce a child only rule and monitor and endorse general slide safety. That all I ask. No more.

My friend did not want a fat settlement. Just the good will of his medical bills paid. In the united states, anyone injured on your property, and if you have homeowners insurance, would be paid good will of actual medical bills. I am sure the condo has a similar policy, but they were unwilling to pay us the good will or offer any help what so ever. My friend was not drunk either, however it probably makes folks on here feel better about themselves on this forum to think he was. It's similar to the mindset of asking someone who has lung cancer if they smoked. Not everyone who gets lung cancer smoked. I suppose a common factor in injury is being drunk, but I assure you this wasn't the case.

So, maybe next time they will help the next injured victim of their condos because this has obviously not been good for the sky's perminant online record. This was not my intention, but it has ended up causing lots of drama at both camps. If the condo staff would have handled the issue with more finesse, our families would not have returned home upset with the lack of Care and respect.

I am a friend of rp. I don't want to see folks not come down to enjoy the fun that we all enjoy.

I think that we have worn out the thread and recomend that it is closed for any new posts. this way we can worry about more pleasurable topics.

Amem

As Estero says, you should still correct the tags on your video, as they are clearly misleading.

clozzzer said:

I understand and respect your point on the keyword stuffing. I actually made the video as a memory for my friend when he feels better and heels up. The slide really is dangerous. Again, it is dangerous. Everyone on here has this crazy opinion that buyer beware, assume your risk, it your fault because you went down it, and the general philosophy that what ever happens in Mexico is unsanctioned from the general rules of safety. When people go down the slide, they didn't sign up for a slide of danger. You said it before, it is a children slide. It is a slide that should not be dangerous for children and adults to enjoy. They have had other injurie related to this slide with people young and old according to the staff at the condos. In the spirit of good for man kind, the should post weight limits on riders, enforce a child only rule and monitor and endorse general slide safety. That all I ask. No more.

My friend did not want a fat settlement. Just the good will of his medical bills paid. In the united states, anyone injured on your property, and if you have homeowners insurance, would be paid good will of actual medical bills. I am sure the condo has a similar policy, but they were unwilling to pay us the good will or offer any help what so ever. My friend was not drunk either, however it probably makes folks on here feel better about themselves on this forum to think he was. It's similar to the mindset of asking someone who has lung cancer if they smoked. Not everyone who gets lung cancer smoked. I suppose a common factor in injury is being drunk, but I assure you this wasn't the case.

So, maybe next time they will help the next injured victim of their condos because this has obviously not been good for the sky's perminant online record. This was not my intention, but it has ended up causing lots of drama at both camps. If the condo staff would have handled the issue with more finesse, our families would not have returned home upset with the lack of Care and respect.

I am a friend of rp. I don't want to see folks not come down to enjoy the fun that we all enjoy.

I think that we have worn out the thread and recomend that it is closed for any new posts. this way we can worry about more pleasurable topics.

You stir up a hornets nest with your post and video...and now you want the hornets to go back in their hive.......

Johnny said:

Only one question: What was the "victims" Blood Alcohol Percentage (BAC %) before he went down the slide? Case closed!

we do like to blame the victim.In some ways it's justified but in other cases it's just right wing bootlicking.Sucking up to power and denigrating the states place in protecting the people is a game played by the forces that want to bring us back to the good old days...the Middle Ages
When my honey was dragged down the beach by my new kiteboarding super kite a few years ago I could have laughed at her for fastening the Velcro band around her wrist. I instead blamed myself and pampered her for the rest of the day.Next time a smart guy like Jim will do the same...hey it is just a bs trick to avoid a fight but what's the harm? oh I'd fix the slide signage too...

Victim or Volunteer?

it's just right wing bootlicking

Seriously Jerry, does EVERY post have to be injected with political spin? As the late Rodney King said "Can't we all just get along?" or at least agree to disagree and keep the politics in the "Rants and Raves" section.

You can witness Jerry in all his "glory" over in Rants and Raves.....

MIRAMAR said:

Seriously Jerry, does EVERY post have to be injected with political spin? As the late Rodney King said "Can't we all just get along?" or at least agree to disagree and keep the politics in the "Rants and Raves" section.

. well Miramar the problem is the right wing silent dog whistles and stuff like posting pictures of Michelle next to a monkey are a form of bullying group think. Some people ignore it while some chose to educate the opposition or just insult them back ...not in a mean way but hey politics is part of life.

I already am looking at the BS over there. But since this is the Trip Report Section, unless Barack Obama or Mitt Romney visits Penasco, it seems any political talk should be kept out of this section and over in Rants and Raves.

jerry said:

. well Miramar the problem is the right wing silent dog whistles and stuff like posting pictures of Michelle next to a monkey are a form of bullying group think. Some people ignore it while some chose to educate the opposition or just insult them back ...not in a mean way but hey politics is part of life.

and your posts are not a form of bullying group think....of the libtard type? Just about every thread you post in has some form of political twist.

Rants and raves is over here ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>>>>>

Hey I'm just glad to be home and would give you a big hug if I could Joe. Miramar how can you not have politics enter issues like this one? I have dealt with these issues quite a bit when I was fabricating constructive objects for public spaces over the last 20 years. it's tricky stuff and i have been on both sides in court cases over a fall from something cool...it is a balancing act...shades of grey..

Miramar how can you not have politics enter issues like this one?

Going down a slide has to do w/ politics? I'm going back to work- done w/ this thread.

jerry said:

Hey I'm just glad to be home and would give you a big hug if I could Joe. Miramar how can you not have politics enter issues like this one? I have dealt with these issues quite a bit when I was fabricating constructive objects for public spaces over the last 20 years. it's tricky stuff and i have been on both sides in court cases over a fall from something cool...it is a balancing act...shades of grey..

OMG....the libtard (sorry Mark, I think it fits in this case) actually believes there is such a thing as grey, and shades of grey....not black and white as he "sees" everything when it suits his purpose!!!

MIRAMAR said:

Going down a slide has to do w/ politics? I'm going back to work- done w/ this thread.

Yes it does...you didn't complain when Paulista yet well rounded thinker Mr. moore spoke out.Someone being injured like my friend that broke his neck on a Mexican parasail then was saved by street kids while the boat drove away do have rights.In Mexico they just don't have enough safety laws while we seem to have too many. I was at the coolest 1930s amusement park in Vienna that could not legally operate in the USA. the old rides are just to dangerous but screw that...they are awesome..Finding the right balance is an art.

jerry said:

Yes it does...you didn't complain when Paulista yet well rounded thinker Mr. moore spoke out.Someone being injured like my friend that broke his neck on a Mexican parasail then was saved by street kids while the boat drove away do have rights.In Mexico they just don't have enough safety laws while we seem to have too many. I was at the coolest 1930s amusement park in Vienna that could not legally operate in the USA. the old rides are just to dangerous but screw that...they are awesome..Finding the right balance is an art.

And who would you have blamed if the ride collapsed and you got hurt?

Every thread gets some off the wall/inapplicable/innapropriate posts (you're the poster boy for that)...but most of the comments in this thread came back to the individual's responsibility for his own safety!

but most of the comments in this thread came back to the individual's responsibility for his own safety!

True in this case Joe, but after spending most of my life in the trades I'm a big fan of OSHA. Without OSHA there is no question that I'd be either crippled or dead, and there is also no question that the soulless corporations I worked for would only be concerned about the bottom line, and not me, if I had.

joe has never worked a real job..desk jockey that he is

Kenny said:

True in this case Joe, but after spending most of my life in the trades I'm a big fan of OSHA. Without OSHA there is no question that I'd be either crippled or dead, and there is also no question that the soulless corporations I worked for would only be concerned about the bottom line, and not me, if I had.

Kenny...this thread was about a specific situation....in Mexico.....and OSHA has nothing to do with the discussion.....it has to do with an individual's responsibility for himself and the consequences for his actions. No one is even suggesting that we shouldn't have OSHA....is there even anything comparable in Mexico?

Jerry...blow it out your ass...oh...that's right....ass = mouth in your case. You don't know me, and haven't the faintest idea of what jobs I may have had!

it has to do with an injury on a playground .I said it's a close call. I can't see why you are so mad...bad day at the office?

here is an example of a similar but nearly fatal case. We build a building front and a mining camp bar that we placed on a back street at old Tucson for a sub hired by Stewart Coplin of the rock band The police.It was a fun job and as me and the crew were tearing it down a wind came up and caused it to fall forward nearly killing two tourists from New Jersey who crossed under a yellow tape to take a look.We never took short cuts after that moment because jail and bankruptcy awaits people that put the general public in danger...even the stupid ones..

jerry said:

it has to do with an injury on a playground .I said it's a close call. I can't see why you are so mad...bad day at the office?

playground???? what playground....this was about a water slide...at a pool....in Mexico......where the individual had no business going down a kid's slide, and head first......and yes, it's a kid's slide...the OP even shot himself by posting the link to the Sonoran video!

Mad?....you don't want to see me mad....just fed up with your usual BS and libtard attack tactics...starting with your first post back.....

but Dan what if your kid went for a ride on a atv and ended up with a broken back after flipping over while following a tour leader up a unsafe route up a dune? in a wheel chair for life with all those bills and you wouldn't sue?

az-dan said:

I stayed at the Sky several years ago and my grandkids worethe slide out while we were there and never got injured. I wanted to go downthe slide, in fact my granddaughter ask me to go with her but it was obviously designedfor kids and kids were using it so I knew better. Also since I was in the poolcatching them so they could make it to the edge I knew it was too shallow foran adult. Maybe I knew better because of the many times when I was younger Ilearned what happened when I didn’t think. Age does that to us old people ittakes us longer to heal. If I rode a jet ski and fell off and got hurt I wouldnot ask the owner of the jet ski to be responsible because I wasn’t warned ofthe risk. When I was there 2 weeks ago a kid got stung by jellyfish should theresort pay for the medical treatment? If so where do you draw the line?

You guys all got to give up the labels, that gets you no where.

rockyptjoe said:

playground???? what playground....this was about a water slide...at a pool....in Mexico......where the individual had no business going down a kid's slide, and head first......and yes, it's a kid's slide...the OP even shot himself by posting the link to the Sonoran video!

Mad?....you don't want to see me mad....just fed up with your usual BS and libtard attack tactics...starting with your first post back.....

No you seem a bit off you game..maybe cut back on the Fox News a bit...not all at once but slowly taper down

Roberto said:

You guys all got to give up the labels, that gets you no where.

Beatnik

jerry said:

No you seem a bit off you game..maybe cut back on the Fox News a bit...not all at once but slowly taper down

I knew you couldn't hold out without bringing up either Rush, Fox News or a racist label!!! How many posts in a row did you make without doing it???? 4??? 5???

jerry said:

Beatnik

Commie, Pinko Ratfink.

rockyptjoe said:

Kenny...this thread was about a specific situation....in Mexico.....and OSHA has nothing to do with the discussion.....it has to do with an individual's responsibility for himself and the consequences for his actions. No one is even suggesting that we shouldn't have OSHA....is there even anything comparable in Mexico?

Jerry...blow it out your ass...oh...that's right....ass = mouth in your case. You don't know me, and haven't the faintest idea of what jobs I may have had!

Well I had you redirected for awhile, but then you had to add a little remark to Jerry on my time, and I'm not one bit happy about that.
I'm starting to worry about you Joe, you seem to be a little out of sorts. Maybe a little walk in the park would do you some good, but probably not.:mrgreen:

Oh, what's with all this ass stuff Joe? You're not coming out of the closet too, are ya?:-o

please, please lets not forget that the guy was playing with kids toys way too small for his large persona to enjoy so he got the next best think he hurt!!!! next time if you are an adult call perro and he will take to Gua-Guas!!!

jerry said:

but Dan what if your kid went for a ride on a atv and ended up with a broken back after flipping over while following a tour leader up a unsafe route up a dune? in a wheel chair for life with all those bills and you wouldn't sue?

First I would not just let my kids or grandkids be lead by someone I didn't have confidence in and if they were injured it would be tragic but it would be my responsibility. My daughter at 8 years old was riding her 3 wheel atc in the woods and I kept telling her to slow down, she ended up hitting a tree and broke her arm. She even at 8 yeras old she was held responsile due to her own actions and as her father I accepted full responsibility and never once did it cross my mind that I should sue the atv manufacture, the forest service for not cutting down the trees or for them not posting warning signs that you can be hurt by running into the trees. But I was taught early in life to accept responsibility for my actions and my dumbass decisions which I can say have been many.

InkaRoads said:

please, please lets not forget that the guy was playing with kids toys way too small for his large persona to enjoy so he got the next best think he hurt!!!! next time if you are an adult call perro and he will take to Gua-Guas!!!

You got to start them young Eduardo!

az-dan said:

First I would not just let my kids or grandkids be lead by someone I didn't have confidence in and if they were injured it would be tragic but it would be my responsibility. My daughter at 8 years old was riding her 3 wheel atc in the woods and I kept telling her to slow down, she ended up hitting a tree and broke her arm. She even at 8 yeras old she was held responsile due to her own actions and as her father I accepted full responsibility and never once did it cross my mind that I should sue the atv manufacture, the forest service for not cutting down the trees or for them not posting warning signs that you can be hurt by running into the trees. But I was taught early in life to accept responsibility for my actions and my dumbass decisions which I can say have been many.

. My neighbors daughter was killed when an atv flipped backwards and the over served brother-in-law landed on top of her...poof and she was gone. the hospital bills came to 200k for the attempt to save her and over a million for his long term care. They sued the bar,the drunk brother and the Atv manufacturer.This sucessfully kept themselves from losing everything. the people that made bad choices...The bar serving a known drunk, the drunk taking a 13 year old on an Atv while drunk ,The Atv manufacturer Putting out a Atv they knew had the problems with flipping far above industry norms all paid for there mistakes. She was a great kid and her death played a part in the upgrading of safety standards/warnings for atv's industry wide and caused the bar to change it's serving policy. who knows how many lives that saved.

Jerry,
I am sorry to hear about your neighbors daughter. I cannot begin to understand the loss that they felt when they lost thier daughter. However there is only one person responsibe for her death. THE SON-IN-LAW. He should have been charged with manslaughter. In the heat of a trail and with a dead child I can see why the jury awarded damages against the bar and ATV manufacturer (follow the money) but I believe that is flawed logic. Where does it end? Sue the spoon maker because I got fat and had a heart attack.....etc. etc. etc.

jerry said:

. My neighbors daughter was killed when an atv flipped backwards and the over served brother-in-law landed on top of her...poof and she was gone. the hospital bills came to 200k for the attempt to save her and over a million for his long term care. They sued the bar,the drunk brother and the Atv manufacturer.This sucessfully kept themselves from losing everything. the people that made bad choices...The bar serving a known drunk, the drunk taking a 13 year old on an Atv while drunk ,The Atv manufacturer Putting out a Atv they knew had the problems with flipping far above industry norms all paid for there mistakes. She was a great kid and her death played a part in the upgrading of safety standards/warnings for atv's industry wide and caused the bar to change it's serving policy. who knows how many lives that saved.

Sad story but this is how I see it. An innocent 13 year old was killed by an irresponsible adult. The adult chose to drink, the bar never forced him. He chose to get on a atv with probably no helmet or safety gear, he choose to ride double even though they are not designed for 2 and he chose to ride beyond his ability, the atvs have never flipped over on their own. Ok who pays the price of his stupidly besides the family, we all do. The bar pays more for insurance and has to charge (us) more to stay in business, the insurance company raises rates to all bars and again we all pay more for drinks, the atv manufacture has to redesign, retool and put warnings all over the atv and weall pay more for them. The atv manufactures are now so afraid of lawsuits that I am unable to purchase an atv for my grandkids because someone else has decided what size and kind of atv they can have. My wife, kids and grandkids have put hundreds if not thousands of hours on 3 wheeled atcs and if properly trained, properly rode and properly supervised they were just as safe as motorcycles. If the atc had a design problem like a weld breaking and the front end fell off then I agree the manufacture should be liable. What if the drunk had his chainsaw running also. Then the chainsaw manufacture could be sued also because they didn’t warn against drinking and riding an atv while using the chain saw. What most people don’t realize is that when people win big lawsuits we all end up paying because those additional cost are pasted on to the consumers (us).

az-dan said:

Sad story but this is how I see it. An innocent 13 year old was killed by an irresponsible adult. The adult chose to drink, the bar never forced him. He chose to get on a atv with probably no helmet or safety gear, he choose to ride double even though they are not designed for 2 and he chose to ride beyond his ability, the atvs have never flipped over on their own. Ok who pays the price of his stupidly besides the family, we all do. The bar pays more for insurance and has to charge (us) more to stay in business, the insurance company raises rates to all bars and again we all pay more for drinks, the atv manufacture has to redesign, retool and put warnings all over the atv and weall pay more for them. The atv manufactures are now so afraid of lawsuits that I am unable to purchase an atv for my grandkids because someone else has decided what size and kind of atv they can have. My wife, kids and grandkids have put hundreds if not thousands of hours on 3 wheeled atcs and if properly trained, properly rode and properly supervised they were just as safe as motorcycles. If the atc had a design problem like a weld breaking and the front end fell off then I agree the manufacture should be liable. What if the drunk had his chainsaw running also. Then the chainsaw manufacture could be sued also because they didn’t warn against drinking and riding an atv while using the chain saw. What most people don’t realize is that when people win big lawsuits we all end up paying because those additional cost are pasted on to the consumers (us).

WELL SAID!!!!!! SO TRUE- I agree 100%

The personal responsibility model is a good one. The manufacturer should take responsibility for producing a safe product. Is it OK to put poision in food that is sold then blame the consumer for not being more careful? The purchaser should take responsibility for using a product in a reasonable and safe manner. If you consume 2 liters of vodka in one hour is that the fault of the manufacturer. Unfortunately people and businesses often want to blame someone else for their misfortune. I guess Madhoff could have blamed the stupidity of his victims to believe that he was that good. Murdoch could blame the inaction of the British Govt. and not stopping the hacking earlier. Resolution of responsibility is part of the US judicial system isn't it?

Dram shop act.

A legislative enactment imposing strict liability upon the seller of intoxicating beverages when the sale results in harm to a third party’s person, property , or means of support. Under common law, no cause of action existed against the person dispensing intoxicating beverages for the resulting damages that might be inflicted by the intoxicated person. The common law theorized that the proximate cause of the injury was not the furnishing of liquor but rather the act of the purchaser in drinking the liquor. 143 P. 2d 952, 955. In many jurisdictions, the legislature has enacted civil damage acts or “dram shop acts” creating a statutory remedy against the seller of intoxicating beverages, provided that the resulting intoxication causes the injury. Under such acts, the plaintiff has a cause of action against the vendor when, by reason of the intoxication of another, he or she sustains personal injury, property damage, or loss of support. Under this theory, some jurisdictions have held that a spouse may recover “for his or her loss of support” when the other spouse dies as a result of intoxication, either their own or another’s. 158 N.E.
2d 7, 9. Since the statute involves strict liability, the plaintiff need not show negligence on the part of the seller.
The law is unsettled though, as to the seller’s rights of indemnity from the intoxicated person who proximately caused the injury. 45 Am. Jur. 2d §612.

Read more: Dram Shop Act: Definition from Answers.com


As of Fall 2003, the following states have NOT enacted Dram Shop Acts: Kansas, Delaware, Hawaii, Maryland, Nebraska, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Virginia, Washington, and West Virginia.

Read more: How many states have the Dram Shop Act

British Columbia police ID biker who posted video of 186-mph ride - CNN.com

186 mph! If he wrecked then sue the bike manufacture because they built a bike that could be modified to go that fast, sue the highway designer because they designed a highway the you could go that fast on and the police department for not having enough police to inforce the speed limit or blame the idiot and hold him responsible.

az-dan said:

British Columbia police ID biker who posted video of 186-mph ride - CNN.com

186 mph! If he wrecked then sue the bike manufacture because they built a bike that could be modified to go that fast, sue the highway designer because they designed a highway the you could go that fast on and the police department for not having enough police to inforce the speed limit or blame the idiot and hold him responsible.

And don't forget to sue the helmet manufacturer when their product fails to save his life after crashing at 186 mph...

Kenny said:

Dram shop act.

A legislative enactment imposing strict liability upon the seller of intoxicating beverages when the sale results in harm to a third party’s person, property , or means of support. Under common law, no cause of action existed against the person dispensing intoxicating beverages for the resulting damages that might be inflicted by the intoxicated person. The common law theorized that the proximate cause of the injury was not the furnishing of liquor but rather the act of the purchaser in drinking the liquor. 143 P. 2d 952, 955. In many jurisdictions, the legislature has enacted civil damage acts or “dram shop acts” creating a statutory remedy against the seller of intoxicating beverages, provided that the resulting intoxication causes the injury. Under such acts, the plaintiff has a cause of action against the vendor when, by reason of the intoxication of another, he or she sustains personal injury, property damage, or loss of support. Under this theory, some jurisdictions have held that a spouse may recover “for his or her loss of support” when the other spouse dies as a result of intoxication, either their own or another’s. 158 N.E.
2d 7, 9. Since the statute involves strict liability, the plaintiff need not show negligence on the part of the seller.
The law is unsettled though, as to the seller’s rights of indemnity from the intoxicated person who proximately caused the injury. 45 Am. Jur. 2d §612.

Read more: Dram Shop Act: Definition from Answers.com


As of Fall 2003, the following states have NOT enacted Dram Shop Acts: Kansas, Delaware, Hawaii, Maryland, Nebraska, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Virginia, Washington, and West Virginia.

Read more: How many states have the Dram Shop Act

hmmm.... a law to penalize the purveyors of potentially unhealthy activity...

I wonder if the Dram Shop Act would penalize Head Shops that sell too many zig-zags or bongs to people who go out and accidentally walk into traffic and get hit by a truck after blazing up... :think:

"The common law theorized that the proximate cause of the injury was not the furnishing of liquor but rather the act of the purchaser in drinking the liquor."

- another intellectual and moral victory for the sensibility of common law.

moore_rb said:

hmmm.... a law to penalize the purveyors of potentially unhealthy activity...

I wonder if the Dram Shop Act would penalize Head Shops that sell too many zig-zags or bongs to people who go out and accidentally walk into traffic and get hit by a truck after blazing up... :think:






- another intellectual and moral victory for the sensibility of common law.

A forum members relative walked into traffic when blitzed and was badly injured.The state ended up paying for some of this individuals care.I think the state should be able to sue the bar if they over served and the driver if they were speeding to get my money back that I provided (gladly via taxes) for another fellow flawed man.

moore_rb said:

hmmm.... a law to penalize the purveyors of potentially unhealthy activity...

I wonder if the Dram Shop Act would penalize Head Shops that sell too many zig-zags or bongs to people who go out and accidentally walk into traffic and get hit by a truck after blazing up... :think:






- another intellectual and moral victory for the sensibility of common law.

It's certainly not a new law, the dram act, as we called it in Oregon, was alive and well in my years there. I know of a case where a Tavern was sued using that law, and they were found liable after serving a drunk who left their establishment and killed a person in a auto accident. For sure one of the most notable reactions of the law was the curtailment of alcohol at party's at work places all across the states.
"The Oregon Court of Appeals, in a 1984 decision in the case of Chartrand v. Coos Bay Tavern, the court decided that the dram shop statute created the standard for when a bar or social host could be held liable is visibly intoxicated and not under the influence. The court decided that the two terms are different standards and a person could be under the influence and not visibly intoxicated. Therefore the legal standard blood alcohol level for being under the influence is not relevant in a dram shop claim. The court also ruled in 1985 that the term visibly intoxicated refers to people intoxicated by controlled substances, alcohol or both in Blunt v. Bocci. Also, the Oregon Supreme court has ruled that a plaintiff need not prove forseeability in negligence in dram shop cases because the legislature resolved the issue in the statute in a 1985 ruling in Chartrand v. Coos Bay Tavern."

For myself I've never filed a lawsuit, or been on disability, though I'm sure I could have won a lawsuit or two, and for sure collected disability insurance.

jerry said:

A forum members relative walked into traffic when blitzed and was badly injured.The state ended up paying for some of this individuals care.I think the state should be able to sue the bar if they over served and the driver if they were speeding to get my money back that I provided (gladly via taxes) for another fellow flawed man.

What the hell does "over-served" mean...?

Law can not exist without legal definition. Please define over-served.

Maybe bars should be legally bound to breathalyze their customers after every round and cut them off when they reach .01...?

Of course - everyone knows that .01 is the point that the fun is really JUST beginning, right?

Hmmmm.... maybe I'm onto something here. Actually, this might just solve a great many problems - no more "over serving" in bars would mean no drunks leaving bars and getting behind the wheel as well... and since revenues would decline, perhaps soon there would be no more bars at all since they would all close shop...

Eventually, we could have someone standing by ready to breathalyze you before you get in your car at home, too... you know, just to make sure you are not "over-serving" yourself at home...

Hey! Wait! We could tie the breathalyzer technology right INTO your car's ignition so that your inebriation prevents you from being able to drive anywhere at all...

I knew it! Technology can solve ALL our societal problems, leaving the arcane nature of laws (and common sense) in the stone ages where they belong...


Hot damn! freedom and liberty will soon no longer be necessary for the human race. Our eternal happiness will be forced upon us by our own callous indifference to what it really means to CHOOSE our own destiny.

Awesome.

See my post above yours Moore, it's not exactly fast breaking news we're talking about here.... http://www.portlandinjuryattorneyblog.com/2011/11/oregon-dram-shop-law---motor-v.html

Kenny- my point is that the law can not exist to make society liable (or accountable) for the consequences of stupid personal decisions.

Law is designed to DEFINE the consequences for actions that society deems unacceptable. Personal decisions (like whether to abide by laws, or to willfully violate them) will ALWAYS belong to the individual (no matter how blazed, ripped, stoned, or drunk the poor fool happens to be when they make the decision)

Decisions (like opinions) are our private property - we are responsible for their existence (no matter our state of mind), and we are accountable for their indelible effects on those around us in society.

The consequences of poor decisions (or the detrimental effects of misguided actions) can not be "diluted" by attempting to legally spread the grief equally among everyone else.

It has never worked. it does not work, and it will never work...

Better we (society) should work to dismantle laws that are ineffectual, and enforce and prosecute those that do seem to work.

What well-formed laws enforce in reasonable consequence, ill-formed laws (like trying to define how much a bar should be allowed to serve its patrons) destroy in personal freedom.

And thus, we end up with an incarcerated inmate population that is 80% composed of small time dope smoking idiots, while truly sociopathic criminals like "the honorable" John S. Corzine are partying in the Hamptons and snorting blow off hookers' tits after facilitating the "legal" theft of Billions from the accounts of legitimate hard working agricultural commodity producers...

But hey- Corzine is a highly effective campaign fund bundler for your man in DC, so he can't really be as bad as all those evil pot-smokers in prison, can he...?

Robert,

Can you provide that address in the Hamptons.
I might as well go out in a blaze of glory.

really easy to see who leans left and who leans right after reading this thread. Big Govenment or personal responsibilty. Hmmmm

garyd said:

really easy to see who leans left and who leans right after reading this thread. Big Govenment or personal responsibilty. Hmmmm

I stated "For myself I've never filed a lawsuit, or been on disability, though I'm sure I could have won a lawsuit or two, and for sure collected disability insurance. And I could honestly add that I can't remember when I last collected a unemploment Check..... How many of my right wing friends can say the same?

Most of you read into this stuff the way you want to see it..Do I like the dram act? Hell no, they tried to get me to testify in behalf of a plaintiff, and when I wouldn't they threatened me with some such bull. Four $ lawyers, and I'm sure they weren't Dem's, sat me down in a room by myself after being subpoenaed, and threatened me with all kinds of stuff. I told them to get ######.... But hey, would I possibly take the law into my own hands if someone's irresponsibility killed one of my loved one's, or maybe even a good friend? You bet your sweet ass I might.

garyd said:

really easy to see who leans left and who leans right after reading this thread. Big Govenment or personal responsibilty. Hmmmm

Gary you loved you some big Gov when Bush was attacking the wrong country and most likely when you get "your" medicare....

Sometimes I lean left and sometimes I lean right but most of the time I am in the middle. I have paid a lot of taxes over the years on programs or wars that I did not agree with so, If I paid into it I expect to get it back. However if I was one of the 50% of population who pay NO taxes I would probably not be too proud about Medicare or any other social program.

garyd said:

Sometimes I lean left and sometimes I lean right but most of the time I am in the middle. I have paid a lot of taxes over the years on programs or wars that I did not agree with so, If I paid into it I expect to get it back. However if I was one of the 50% of population who pay NO taxes I would probably not be too proud about Medicare or any other social program.

Again, it's people seeing things the way they want to see them.
Today, TPC released a new study that examines why these people end up paying no federal income tax.
The number one reason should come as no surprise. It’s because they have low incomes. As my colleague Bob Williams notes:
A couple with two children earning less than $26,400 will pay no federal income tax this year because their $11,600 standard deduction and four exemptions of $3,700 each reduce their taxable income to zero. The basic structure of the income tax simply exempts subsistence levels of income from tax.
Low incomes (or, if you prefer, the standard deduction and personal exemptions) account for fully half of the people who pay no federal income tax.
The second reason is that for many senior citizens, Social Security benefits are exempt from federal income taxes. That accounts for about 22% of the people who pay no federal income tax.
The third reason is that America uses the tax code to provide benefits to low-income families, particularly those with children. Taken together, the earned income tax credit, the child credit, and the childcare credit account for about 15% of the people who pay no federal income tax.
Taken together, those three factors — incomes that fall below the standard deduction and personal exemptions; the exemption for most Social Security benefits; and tax benefits aimed at low-income families and children — account for almost 90% of the Americans who pay no federal income tax...Why do half of Americans pay no federal income tax? - CSMonitor.com

In case you missed it P.S.: The true fact — about half of Americans do not pay federal income taxes – often gets transmogrified in public discourse into the decidedly untrue claim that half of Americans pay no taxes. That simply isn’t so. There are many other taxes in our fair land, including payroll taxes, excise taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, and property taxes. Most people who don’t pay federal income taxes still encounter some of these other taxes.

Your a smart guy Gary, don't be a follower of the uninformed and prejudiced that seems to be the norm on this forum, do a little thinking on your own, (do a little research), and don't just go with the flow.

Kenny said:

Again, it's people seeing things the way they want to see them.
Today, TPC released a new study that examines why these people end up paying no federal income tax.
The number one reason should come as no surprise. It’s because they have low incomes. As my colleague Bob Williams notes:
A couple with two children earning less than $26,400 will pay no federal income tax this year because their $11,600 standard deduction and four exemptions of $3,700 each reduce their taxable income to zero. The basic structure of the income tax simply exempts subsistence levels of income from tax.
Low incomes (or, if you prefer, the standard deduction and personal exemptions) account for fully half of the people who pay no federal income tax.
The second reason is that for many senior citizens, Social Security benefits are exempt from federal income taxes. That accounts for about 22% of the people who pay no federal income tax.
The third reason is that America uses the tax code to provide benefits to low-income families, particularly those with children. Taken together, the earned income tax credit, the child credit, and the childcare credit account for about 15% of the people who pay no federal income tax.
Taken together, those three factors — incomes that fall below the standard deduction and personal exemptions; the exemption for most Social Security benefits; and tax benefits aimed at low-income families and children — account for almost 90% of the Americans who pay no federal income tax...Why do half of Americans pay no federal income tax? - CSMonitor.com

In case you missed it P.S.: The true fact — about half of Americans do not pay federal income taxes – often gets transmogrified in public discourse into the decidedly untrue claim that half of Americans pay no taxes. That simply isn’t so. There are many other taxes in our fair land, including payroll taxes, excise taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, and property taxes. Most people who don’t pay federal income taxes still encounter some of these other taxes.

Your a smart guy Gary, don't be a follower of the uninformed and prejudiced that seems to be the norm on this forum, do a little thinking on your own, (do a little research), and don't just go with the flow.

I appreciate your insight. Thanks

garyd said:

I appreciate your insight. Thanks

Thanks for taking the time to see what the real take is on that number, and why Gary. I'll tell you what, I'd rather be making a $100,000 and paying taxes, than someone who works damn hard for $25,000 and has two kids and is trying to make ends meet with everything going up but his wages; even with no Federal taxes to pay.

Kenny said:

Thanks for taking the time to see what the real take is on that number, and why Gary. I'll tell you what, I'd rather be making a $100,000 and paying taxes, than someone who works damn hard for $25,000 and has two kids and is trying to make ends meet with everything going up but his wages; even with no Federal taxes to pay.

I agree $65K net is better than $25K anyday !!!!

garyd said:

I agree $65K net is better than $25K anyday !!!!

Of couse but there are a lot of other variables that go into what it takes to make it today with such a low income. People get taken for a ride on many levels when their the working poor. Why do you think places like Aron's are so big? Some people just can't just lay down the money for their simple needs like a washer and dryer, so they pay BIG in the long term "lease" from places like that. If your credit rating is not that hot, you pay more for cars, houses, you name it. There's a long list of the obstacles that are put in people way's to get out of the lower middle class, and the fact that their wages have not kept up with the rise of goods and services in well over 10 years, while the rich paper pushers have been on a steady rise is just one of them.

Damn, I still basically type with one finger, no I do type with one finger, and at times it's hard to keep up. You guy's aught to thank your lucky star's I'm not as fast as some on here..LOL

Thank you stars......

GV Jack said:

Thank you stars......

That be "lucky stars" Jack, and not to worry, I can always find time for you.:veg:

Bad Old Stars...Let me down again.

Hey Robert..I'm still looking for that address in the Hamptons...

You wanna come along Kenny?

Kenny- my point is that the law can not exist to make society liable (or accountable) for the consequences of stupid personal decisions.

And my point was without going into a bunch of long winded bull, and without even saying if I agree or not, (I didn't) is that they have; and it's not a new phenomena that just poped up. Not only can they have laws like that, they do, and have for generations.

GV Jack said:

Bad Old Stars...Let me down again.

Hey Robert..I'm still looking for that address in the Hamptons...

You wanna come along Kenny?

Only if I drive, the Moore would spend the whole trip arguing with stop signs.

Kenny said:

Only if I drive, the Moore would spend the whole trip arguing with stop signs.

Not to mention my affinity for STOP LIGHTS.....