unfinished projects

I can't be the only one on this site that bought in one of the many unfished developments in Penasco. The people that sold them are long gone. With the real estate recovering in AZ, some day someone is going to come town and start finishing those up. What will happen to all the orginal investors. I can't see anyone giving us our money back and we don't really own anything.

I think fixing them is a real soup sandwich. ALL parties wuld have to get together and agree before a sale or transfer could take place.

The city should seize the properties, bulldoze them and build parks.

All the real estate agents are just crooks waiting or leaving town...

I have heard that one of the unfinished projects in Las Conchas is up for sale by the orginal developer. And I was a buyer at one of them. I never received any notice of bankruptcy and I am no expert at Mexican real estate law, I wonder what is going to happen. We also heard that the 2 developements in the old port had someone interested in completing them and I know alot of people that had put money down on those two.

A friend made an offer on one of the two in LC and it was turned down. A bank and the developer were both involved the bank was in first position and the developer wanted more than they were getting so the deal fell through. Plan was to convert to assisted living which the buyer has developed successfully elsewhere.

A best case scenario for those that put money down on projects...
1. if the project is held by a lender, they will eventually want to sell.
2. the more likely buyer (believe it or not) is probably the original developer. they will often come back and buy-back the development at pennies to the dollar. You have to understand that the developer often has done to much leg work and they may be in the best position to finish the project.
3. if the developer buys it back or a new developer comes in, the hope would be that they would offer some sort of a discounted purchase price to those that put money down. If the new developer or existing developer bought at a discount, then it should be easier to jump start sales by selling a discounted lot to original buyers of the development.

I really think an assisted living facility is overdue in Penasco.

Chasing lost money works so well at the Indian Casino I bet giving more money to some Scottsdale shyster or some Cartel linked Mexican film flam man that robbed you 6 years ago is a sure thing.


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Question? Talked to someone that owned at SPA when I did. We both sold about the same time and I lost track of her. She is back in AZ now and divorced. She and her husband paid for a Phase 3 unit in LP and a unit at the Marina, neither of which came to be. She was talking to a lawyer in PHX that seem to be fimiliar with all the goings on in PP. She got the Marina in the divorce. The lawyer in PHX told her that those projects that are no finished and have sat and rusted will never come to be. He said that if and when the port is finished, the govt will declare those unfinished projects uninhabitable and whoever get them will have to tear them down and start all over. I have never heard that. I assumed that someone would come in, buy them at a bargin and resell them. I told her I would post this question.

Marina? Down in the Old Port?

We just finished top floor of a low rise condo that sat for 5 years and I did not see that much sigh of spalling.I would shy away from anything big.You wonder why the couldn't rework the towers into hotels.....

How did you deal with the rusting rebar? Especially where it projects from the 5 yr old concrete?

I had some rebar exposed for 6 years, after power wire brushing it it was clean and shinny, surface rusted only. I was surprised that the rust didn't destroy the rebar, it was 100 ft from the water .

Some rust is acceptable and even advantageous.

http://www.cctia.org/FAQ_Files/10.016_Rust_on_Rebar.html

Landshark said:

How did you deal with the rusting rebar? Especially where it projects from the 5 yr old concrete?

Innerseal Dps stops water from getting to rebar but a little rust is no big deal.If the rust or mill scale is light, it will not affect the bond to the concrete. In fact, studies have shown that mill scale and light rust enhance the bond between concrete and steel

We have problems with rebar developing rust within the concrete & swelling causing the concrete to crack & split open. The beginning of the end. Seems like in your case the rust would have run down the rebar into the concrete over the years and create future failures. So your saying you sealed up the rebar & old concrete with Innerseal DPS to provent this? The theory being with an absence of moisture the rust process will permanently stop?

Landshark said:

We have problems with rebar developing rust within the concrete & swelling causing the concrete to crack & split open. The beginning of the end. Seems like in your case the rust would have run down the rebar into the concrete over the years and create future failures. So your saying you sealed up the rebar & old concrete with Innerseal DPS to provent this? The theory being with an absence of moisture the rust process will permanently stop?

Yes....our exposed rebar and cracking on porch was pretty minimal,the walls were Built with 20 inch Performwall .Just used it out of caution.....is yours just in spots? You could just Seal it and put an overlay over it..Could consider a big fix ( cut out rusted Rebar and replace after chipping out concrete...yikes...then patch)or just enjoy the Miracle of nature reclaiming its territory.

My exposed rebar has been encased in concrete and block walls for 18 years now and no sign of any problems.

Yes, she got Marina at Old Port. Has anyone heard anything about the government condeming them and reselling them to a developer?

Have not heard anything about Mexico pulling out the eminent domain on most of these projects, no one interested in buying them till the recovery.

jerry said:

Yes....our exposed rebar and cracking on porch was pretty minimal,the walls were Built with 20 inch Performwall .Just used it out of caution.....is yours just in spots? You could just Seal it and put an overlay over it..Could consider a big fix ( cut out rusted Rebar and replace after chipping out concrete...yikes...then patch)or just enjoy the Miracle of nature reclaiming its territory.

Yes, just in spots. Some minor so far, others basically falling apart. We have done everything from minor patches to complete tear out & rebuilds, but haven't used a sealer to waterproof the areas. Sounds like that is the key to slow down the problem. Just recently our contractor talked about Drylok sealer. I assume you think Innerseal DPS is a better product??? He says they use Drylok when building water cisterns to seal them up. He is suggesting sealing our masonry/boveda domes prior to applying elastomeric.

Well it seemed to be a good product but I used it because I got it from a project leftovers...SOCOADA in Y Griega carries a mexican version.Sometimes their shit is way more industrial...Jorge 6371174087 speaks English and knows the products.

As for the Original question on the thread I think Robert is right.Why would you jump into a litigation swamp? Plus when the Homeport is finished and the ship is stuck in Port with everyone flushing the days buffet load of turds it might be smart to see which way those baby Ruth's are floating....toward the paddleboarders at Las Conchas or headed up to Chola Bay.........mmmm...clam digging anyone?

Gee jerry, you make Rocky Point sound like a great place.

Landshark said:

We have problems with rebar developing rust within the concrete & swelling causing the concrete to crack & split open. The beginning of the end. Seems like in your case the rust would have run down the rebar into the concrete over the years and create future failures. So your saying you sealed up the rebar & old concrete with Innerseal DPS to provent this? The theory being with an absence of moisture the rust process will permanently stop?

I have been chipping rusty rebar out of the concrete on my porch. The rebar in the concrete was completely decimated by rust and had turned to powder in many cases. The expanding rusty repair cracked and spalled the concrete and broke the edges off in some areas. The rust continued to eat the rebar deep into areas that were apparently solid from the outside. I see a lot of cracks in my parapet walls which I have been caulking but I suspect rusty rebar is the culprit. If your concrete is cracked or spalled from rusty rebar there is no fix other than hacking out the damaged areas and rebuilding , in my opinion. My parapet walls are next on my list to demo and rebuild.

I seen the same thing on a drive way I had taken out and repoured. The rebar was rusted to the point of falling apart. It was installed 1/2 way into the pour too. The problem I think is they use # 3 rebar vs # 4 used here in the US.

There is a beach house at Santo Tomas done by a Caborca builder that used #3 rebar on the retaining walls and used it sparsly.....waiting for it to crumble....so far it looks ok though

jerry said:

Well it seemed to be a good product but I used it because I got it from a project leftovers...SOCOADA in Y Griega carries a mexican version.Sometimes their shit is way more industrial...Jorge 6371174087 speaks English and knows the products.

As for the Original question on the thread I think Robert is right.Why would you jump into a litigation swamp? Plus when the Homeport is finished and the ship is stuck in Port with everyone flushing the days buffet load of turds it might be smart to see which way those baby Ruth's are floating....toward the paddleboarders at Las Conchas or headed up to Chola Bay.........mmmm...clam digging anyone?

Never know, it may attract the elusive Cotez Caca Eating Croaker and start a whole new sport fishing bonanza right there at Sandy Beach!

Not to hijack a thread, regarding the unfinished projects, here's my guess FWIW.

Fact is land ownership in Mexico is not like in the US. If there is a dispute, it can take many years to resolve, if ever. There are actually constitutional issues regarding land ownership. It's the main reason for the last revolution.

One project with which I have some familiarity is an example of the possibilities. There are several parties involved. 1. The land owner who holds a valid title to the property. 2. The developer who also might have investors. 3. The contractor who might not have been paid all he is owed. 4. A Mexican Bank which loaned money to the project. 5. Individuals who purchased in the project.
NOne of htese parties can do anything without the other's cooperation and agreement.

In a legal dispute it seems that each of the above has a legal interest in the project. If all agree the project could sell. But everyone will have to take a large loss. If they are all pissed off, which is prolly usual, war is waged. a Gordian knot of leins is filed.

One of the most active developers who was involved in several of the unfinised projects typically had several layers of involved parties. Often he had not one penny in the project yet paid himself well. With the promise of riches the land owner provided the land, with the promise of riches private investors forked over buckets of cash to the deveoper, with the promise of high profits the contractor pushed ahead of the income curve. With the promise of rapid increases in value, private buyers bid up prices. Then the bottom fell out. The developer is absent. Rumor is he has a home in Spain and one in Nicaragua.

I asked around about the possibility of the Gov. taking over but no one has ever heard of such an event in Mexico. Might be possible though. Guess if it became a real issue of public safety they might be able to move.

Roberto said:

Not to hijack a thread, regarding the unfinished projects, here's my guess FWIW.

Fact is land ownership in Mexico is not like in the US. If there is a dispute, it can take many years to resolve, if ever. There are actually constitutional issues regarding land ownership. It's the main reason for the last revolution.

One project with which I have some familiarity is an example of the possibilities. There are several parties involved. 1. The land owner who holds a valid title to the property. 2. The developer who also might have investors. 3. The contractor who might not have been paid all he is owed. 4. A Mexican Bank which loaned money to the project. 5. Individuals who purchased in the project.
NOne of htese parties can do anything without the other's cooperation and agreement.

In a legal dispute it seems that each of the above has a legal interest in the project. If all agree the project could sell. But everyone will have to take a large loss. If they are all pissed off, which is prolly usual, war is waged. a Gordian knot of leins is filed.

One of the most active developers who was involved in several of the unfinised projects typically had several layers of involved parties. Often he had not one penny in the project yet paid himself well. With the promise of riches the land owner provided the land, with the promise of riches private investors forked over buckets of cash to the deveoper, with the promise of high profits the contractor pushed ahead of the income curve. With the promise of rapid increases in value, private buyers bid up prices. Then the bottom fell out. The developer is absent. Rumor is he has a home in Spain and one in Nicaragua.

I asked around about the possibility of the Gov. taking over but no one has ever heard of such an event in Mexico. Might be possible though. Guess if it became a real issue of public safety they might be able to move.

It doesn't happen often without the participation of some heavy hitters with connections and something to gain, but I have seen it happen in San Carlos, Sonora in the late 70s, early 80s where a project was in such a legal mess that the governor finally declared eminent domain and after a few years, finally resolved the issue, pretty much fairly to all parties of interest. Today it is one the more successful projects with a very high occupancy record.

I have also seen an eyesore, partially constructed beachfront highrise closeby, eventually torn down, thereby eliminating a prominent monument to failure.

It can be done by the right people if so desired.

That's good to know Jim. I thought it should be possible. I like the 'if so desired' comment !! Thanks.

Terry C said:

I seen the same thing on a drive way I had taken out and repoured. The rebar was rusted to the point of falling apart. It was installed 1/2 way into the pour too. The problem I think is they use # 3 rebar vs # 4 used here in the US.

FYI: I now believe that incredibly close inspection of the original work while it is being completed is essential. I found that part of the "pour" or thickness on my patio slimmed down to only two inches from the standard 4". When you put already rusty rebar in and it starts to expand in a two inch pour it will not last long.
On the other hand, in Scottsdale, I have had to demo concrete that was installed 100% by the book by very experienced crews. It just cracked in the middle of the floor for no reason. The concrete guys said sometimes no matter what this happens.

jerry said:

There is a beach house at Santo Tomas done by a Caborca builder that used #3 rebar on the retaining walls and used it sparsly.....waiting for it to crumble....so far it looks ok though

J: concrete and masonry is so bizarre. Sometimes all of the precautions and proper technique in the world don't help and then some guy builds with no proper usage of materials and the project lasts forever.

Dirt, you need to buy the Germans house in Santo Tomas....lots of concrete adventure to be had...

jerry said:

There is a beach house at Santo Tomas done by a Caborca builder that used #3 rebar on the retaining walls and used it sparsly.....waiting for it to crumble....so far it looks ok though

We recently had a small retaining wall built and the rebar issue came up between the contractor and his lead guy on the job. The lead guy was mid 50's and said he had been doing it his entire life, said everybody tends to use too much rebar which leads to rust-related failure. Contractor wanted rebar everywhere, this guy argued to use it sparingly to provide strength and support only where needed. Lead guy won the battle, built the wall his way. It's basically on the dunes and has held up good so far. Wish he had been there when the porch railings were built. They are full of rebar including cross braces to provide spacing for the side forms. Of course the cross braces are flush with the edge of the railing and exposed when completed and have lead to major rusting and failure. Tearing them out and replacing them this spring using lead guy's method. Also will be using Drylok on everything built or repaired in the future. The neighbor used it on his pre-cast pillars when they were repaired and painted about the same time as ours were, by the same guy. His still look great and ours which didn't get Drylok are shot and need another repair. It's impossible to stop the damage from the sea breeze but hoping to slow it down. The maintenance is out of control...

Even NASA has to cope with rusting rebar.

http://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2007/er_4.html

Rebar ghosting was a constant problem with our picky customers.Plus the color is never just like Martha Stewart's...blah blah blah...

jerry said:

Dirt, you need to buy the Germans house in Santo Tomas....lots of concrete adventure to be had...

J: I seem to glom on to projects like the one you are mentioning. Is it the White House with the large front porch?
After you read my book recommendation I want to hear what you think.

JimMcG said:

Even NASA has to cope with rusting rebar.

http://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2007/er_4.html

Jim: thanks, I loved this article. I sent the article to my buddies who come yo mex with me, one is a soils engineer the other a Hydrogeologist. I told them to get working on making my negative ions!

jerry said:

Dirt, you need to buy the Germans house in Santo Tomas....lots of concrete adventure to be had...

Is it the German U-boat guy's house?

Landshark said:

Is it the German U-boat guy's house?

No but we really have go looking for hidden nazi and jap weapons stashes.

Hijack...

jerry said:

No but we really have go looking for hidden nazi and jap weapons stashes.

Sounds like great fun, really cool when you actually find what your looking for. It's a lot better if you have a basic idea it exists and about where. Found this a few years back after hunting the better part of a day. Just before I found it I heard a hollow sound under the faint trail I was following. Knew I was close...

Landshark said:

Hijack...

Sounds like great fun, really cool when you actually find what your looking for. It's a lot better if you have a basic idea it exists and about where. Found this a few years back after hunting the better part of a day. Just before I found it I heard a hollow sound under the faint trail I was following. Knew I was close...

Them some big fishing lures.

The last time I was down I talked to someone I know that bought at Harbor. The unfinished metal thing going into Old Port. He told me that Gus Brown was going to finish Esmeralda before the dock is done. I do know that a lot of projects in San Carlos did get finished with help from the government, But we have so many in Penasco. I bought a house at the Villages in Los Conchos and the developer used my money to finish other house. Never started mine and is nowhere to be found. Phase 3 at Las Palomas and Diamond Village do not look good for all these new tourist coming to town.

It's called cash flow management with other peoples cash.

That seems the way it is done in Mexico, when I built my house 20 years ago every time I gave the developer a payment,
I saw work progress on other projects he was building. I finally told him after giving him 30% of the total, no more money
until I see the walls up. 4 weeks later they were up.

When I spoke with a neighbor who was starting his house a few months after mine and his down payment enabled my walls to go up.
Surprisingly the developer finished all the projects but it took 2x as long as he promised.

The Esmeralda getting finished, :rolleyes: That's a good one, the last trip down, the 2 cranes we no longer part of the Sandy Beach skyline.
Casa Blanca is the other unfinished SBR project and that cash flow enabled the Esmeralda to get to it's current state of completion.
It didn't seem like any work was being done on that project.

I do hope that the semi completed projects get finished and the rusting skeletons get torn down.

Sadly, these rusting, skeletal monuments to Mexican, econonomic failures will not be finished/demolished/resolved until the movers and shakers at the highest levels, recognize that they will continue to be an insurmountable impediment to their future bottom lines. It traditionally has taken a long time and the direct participation of the political/judicial system before any remedies are achieved, but has been accomplished in other Mexican beach areas.

Was down this weekend and noticed that the unfinished Palomas building looked to have been painted on on side and it looked like they may have had some new work going on. All smoke and mirrors maybe just to pretty up the rust, or is there some tangible new development?

You would have to be crazy to buy now..... the thing is sometimes crazy wins bigly as Putin's friend has shown us...

Was down this past weekend, and was told by a source that Esmeralda has been sold. Supposedly they will complete previously sold or started units first. Also, same people negotiating to get casa Blanca and complete.
Anyone heard anything on this?

Wait 'til the cash calls start coming in. I wouldn't give 'em one thin dime until the condo was completed. Fool me once....

Questionable time to start major gringo-funded real estate projects. Trump & Nieto pissed at each other, the wall, Mexico trade war looming.......
Gotta wonder what the hustlers are really thinking.

Yeah, seemed strange to me too when I drove past Palomas, maybe I was just imagining it. I should've snapped a picture, maybe someone else can when they have a chance. I assume if there *is* work going on its probably just to make it slightly less of an eyesore...

At least on the bright side, we went to Casa de Capitan and the new road up is almost done- and they used hydraulic concrete- looks great. The smaller scale public works improvements that have been going on are definitely nice...

The road to the Captian's will be a great improvement, however I will miss the old bumpy trail up the mountain!