Drug murders 2 weeks ago?

audsley

Guest
About Dec. 18 the Az Daily Star ran the story below about six people murderered near Rocky Point. I was hoping to pick up the scuttlebutt on this forum, but I don't find mention of it anywhere. Where did it take place? What's being said around town about it? Are the narcos increasing their presence in the area?

Here's the part of the story dealing with Rocky Point:

By MARK STEVENSON
Associated Press Writer

MEXICO CITY — Police found six bullet-ridden, decomposing bodies Friday near a highway leading to a Mexican resort on the Gulf of California.
The six men were found half-buried on a dirt road off the highway frequently used by tourists from Arizona to reach the Puerto Penasco resort, widely known as Rocky Point, according to Sonora state police. The men's identities and the motive for their killing have not been established. Shell casings from an assault rifle - a weapon favored by Mexico's violent drug cartels - were found nearby.
 
This was covered in the Rocky Point News Online. The six men were identified as all being from Sinaloa, although a couple had been living in Sonoyta and another couple in Mexicali. I don't think the problem is a result of increased narco presence, but they are fighting over turf left open by recent deaths and arrests.
 

audsley

Guest
If I want to know as little as possible about risks in Rocky Point, I'll read the Rocky Point Times. Yes, I already had all that information. What I really wanted to know is whether Rocky Point has acquired a criminal element that may also be prone to robberies and kidnappings, which are surprisingly common elsewhere in Mexico even though such incidents are rarely publicized. I'm also wondering whether law enforcement is being compromised.

When six men are excecuted outside a small town and no one wants to talk about it, I think I have my answers.
 

audsley

Guest
Thank you, Waterkids, for your post while I was typing. I hadn't seen that information from the Tides and the related discussion. I get the feeling Rocky Point is losing its innocence.
 
I think Penasco lost it's "innocence" when the condos got built, with the importation of cheap labor from other parts of Mexico.....:stir::stir: although if you speak to some really "old timers" who have lived here from the 60's or 70's, there was always drug activity (with an easy way to bring the drugs into the US)....it just never touched the tourists unless they went looking.
 

ReelHard

grouper slayer
wow . i cant believe you get all excited over a murder in mexico. there is a lot more in az. but if this makes you shy about going , i guess you need to lock yourself up at home. the only people ussally involved in these are thee cartel and crooked cops. but you can believe what you want.
 

InkaRoads

cronopiador
I think Penasco lost it's "innocence" when the condos got built,.......
When they started to build PP for the tourist to enjoy in general they open the gates for all kinds of big city caos, including drugs in the way of the cartels that now come to PP to vacation, just like you and me, the difference is that they get follow by their counterparts to get killed, I believe we all know the cost of progress, specially when Sonora and Sinaloa states drug pins also like the resort town, mainly in their back yard, look at Acapulco, Cancun, etc, and you thought that little Penasco was not going to get affected by the hundreds of condo built?
Like someone said before "run, run long and hard" or something like that and then you find that you will die sooner or later so might as well enjoy life were you want to, so if drug wars, terrorism, crime, robbery, assault and battery are not the type of things you want to raise your kids around I suggest the earliest flight to a deserted island is in your future.
Relax and enjoy untill the bullet get to you!! Happy New Year!!! :eek3:
 

Roberto

Guest
If I want to know as little as possible about risks in Rocky Point, I'll read the Rocky Point Times. Yes, I already had all that information. What I really wanted to know is whether Rocky Point has acquired a criminal element that may also be prone to robberies and kidnappings, which are surprisingly common elsewhere in Mexico even though such incidents are rarely publicized. I'm also wondering whether law enforcement is being compromised.

When six men are excecuted outside a small town and no one wants to talk about it, I think I have my answers.
Not sure where you live, but I can assure you that Rocky Point has no more of a criminal element than your community, particularly if you live in a city. Phoenix is the number 1 city for kidnapping in the US. A big part of the problem is that reporting crime in crime ridden cities of the US just does not have the sex appeal of crime in Mexico. Many neighborhoods in US cities are completely controlled by gangs, so much so that it's just not new so it's not News and not worth repeating every night that the neighborhood is gang controlled. "We reported that last week so we don't have to talk about it anymore." Lots of criminal incidents in the US go unpublished and unreported there ain't enough paper or enough air time to read the inventory of crime. So if you want to know as little as possible about crime in your area, watch the local news and read your local news paper. The news here is reported by local News outlets, like radio. Yes it's in Spanish and yes if you don't speak the language you won't get the news, but it is there. The fact that it's in Spanish is not part of some nefarious plot, Spanish is the language of Mexico.

As for law enforcement, well they ain't perfect in the US either. I lived near Santa Fe NM in a small community. It was reported as one of the most crime free towns in the entire US. I found out that the Chief came in every day and collected all of the incident reports, sat next to his trash can, and decided which of the reports actually involved a crime and which didn't. He effectively was involved in "crime reduction" because no one knew about it!! The police were too busy running speed traps to be concerned about burgularies. If you did complain too much, you invariably got robbed yourself. The chief accused me of assaulting him when I got too insistent on neighborhood patrols.

Yes, burglaries occur here. Surprisingly few when you consider, for example, that the community of Las Conchas is virtually abandoned 90% of the time making it an ideal target. Maybe someone is covering up? While they are not there a lot of the time, owners do communicate with each other. When there is a burgulary the word goes around pretty fast. They use it as an index of the effectiveness of the security they hire.

Do you sit around you dinner table talking about crime in your community every day? Mob killings have been common in the US, now gang killings are more commonly reported. Mostly they kill each other, hardly worth reporting in a crime ridden city. Bodies were found buried all over the West side of Albuquerque a bit ago. Lots of them. People did not start moving out because of that. It made the news for a few days only because there was a lot of digging going on discovering more bodies. Now remember that's NEW Mexico, not Old Mexico.

I visited here regularly for 5 years and have lived here full time for 4 years. I routinely stroll Calle 13 in the night and have never been accosted, except by someone selling "something". I live in the Mirador and walk to the beach day and night and have never been accosted by anyone. I drive the highways to Sonoita, Hermosillo, Sahuaripa, Bacanora, Bahia de Kino and even out into the desert with no problems. Two sons visited over the Thanksgiving holiday and hit many of the local bars with no problems. My nephew visited over the Christmas holiday and walked all over day and night with no mishaps. I spent New Year's eve in one of the local neighborhoods, sitting around a fire outside and had no problems. There is a much greater probabilty that I'll be hurt by falling off the ladder while trimming the palm trees than by someone else. Most people get hurt by accidents in their own home, not by crime.

Yes it can be discomforting to see men in uniforms with automatic weapons in the streets. I felt that way in Rome, Athens and Cairo.

Someone did break into my house about 2 months ago. The alarm went off and in the 5 minutes it took me to get to the house both the police and the alarm company arrived. Nothing was taken, nothing was damaged. Yeah it was an attempted burgulary that was thwarted by taking precautions, just as you do in the US.

I'm not sure what you want to talk about regarding the 6 bodies. I guess there were 6 of them, and I guess they were dead, and I guess they were shot, and I guess they were buried in the desert somewhere near Sonoita and Penasco, I guess they were not tourists, I guess it was cartel related. I guess all that because I personally did not observe any of this, I'm a real cynic, not because I don't think its an accurate report. I could probably get a look at the post mortem if I wanted, but I'm not interested in the gory details. It's clearly a human tragedy.

Well I hope you feel OK to come down again , stay in a nice house on the beach, fish the estuary, have Tacos at Marys and stroll the Malecon. Bring your friends too, you already know it's the cheapest beach vacation you can find !! Just be alert as you should be anywhere. You might want to avoid Phoenix due to the kidnapping problem there!!
 
wow . i cant believe you get all excited over a murder in mexico. there is a lot more in az. but if this makes you shy about going , i guess you need to lock yourself up at home. the only people ussally involved in these are thee cartel and crooked cops. but you can believe what you want.
:eek3::-o:confused:
There are a bunch of regulars on this forum that have been coming down to Penasco for 20, 30, or more years (I'm at about 25). I keep my eyes and ears open....an d when it gets to the point of having regular shootouts in the street where innocent people get killed, I will find somewhere else to go. I like to be aware of what is going on...and the reporting here is not the "instant" gratification that we are used to in the US. So maybe a "newbie' on this forum (don't know how long you've been visiting Penasco) should be a little bit more tolerant when there are questions being asked about some killings in or near Penasco!!!

There are many that are coming down for the first time...or second...and they read the misreporting in the Phoenix/Tuscon papers, and the tv stations, and post on here asking questions. Is that wrong????

We had a very lively discussion on the same matter last summer (or was it the pprevious year???)when there were three individuals shot on the main drag in town by one of the banks....and then there was another shooting at one of the hotels, with the shooters following the victim to the clinic , where they finished him off. None of the clinic staff, or even the police that were there were hurt.
 

audsley

Guest
I think we're all wanting the same thing here, but we need to look at what works and what doesn't.

I started going to Rocky Point 20 years ago and have visited maybe a dozen times since for 3 to 5 days at a time. In the beginning it was two or more families with kids and few worries beyond stingrays and sunburns. Later the kids went off to college and traveled down for the infamous spring break parties. As empty nesters, my wife and I now go down with other couples and rent a house in Las Conchas. About half these trips included people who had never been to RP before, and invariably the new visitors conclude that they do in fact feel safe there. I've always encouraged other people to go and have insisted that the horror stories people hear about Mexico don't apply to Rocky Point or the route to get there. What's at stake now is whether I can continue to make those claims.

Even though I don't get down there every year, Rocky Point is important to me and I'd hate to lose it as a unique getaway spot. But even before the recent outbreak of violence, it was already facing two major threats to its viability as a tourist destination. One threat, the poor economy, is temporary, but I fear that the passport requirement will permanently cripple the tourist trade. I hear that only 22% of Arizonans have passports, which means spur-of-the-moment excursions are pretty much out for 78% of the population. With that going against it, Rocky Point doesn't need any more problems.

For Rocky Point to remain attractive to Arizonans looking for family-and-friends-at-the-beach getaways, it must establish a reputation for being free of the thuggery and corruption that takes place elsewhere in Mexico. I had a pretty good narrative going: there's nothing in Rocky Point to attract the criminal element as it is outside the principal smuggling routes, is a small town, and has a tourist industry that the locals must protect for their own economic survival. But even before these latest incidents, many Americans I talked to simply refused to accept my judgment that a 65-mile drive into Mexico could somehow be safe. Now it's getting to be an even harder sell.

As someone pointed out, it's possible that the quaint little village by the sea is gone for good. The high-rise condos and other tourist developments of the last decade might have changed RP's character forever. But maybe RP's leadership will come to its senses and realiize that Rocky Point never had the potential to play in the same league with Cancun or Cabo anyway, and that it's brightest future lies in making it safe and enjoyable for the types of tourists who have traditionally gone there, and maybe RP will learn how to optimize its true potential. (Like maybe by protecting its fishery?)

I respect the intentions of those who have come to RP's defense, but let me tell you what I think works and what doesn't. First, a short list of THINGS THAT DON'T MATTER.

It does not matter that crime rates are high in certain U.S. locales. Most Americans including me do not live in high-crime areas. What happens on the side streets of south Tucson means nothing to me because I have no reason to go there. But what happens on the Sonoyta-Puerto Penasco Highway will determine whether I want to take my wife and friends along it.

It doesn't matter that there are risks traveling in other countries. Most other countries don't have heavily armed gangs taking over entire towns, running off or killing off the local police and engaging in rampant kidnapping for ransom. Americans won't be vacationing much in Somalia or Darfur either.

It doesn't matter that a lone male adventurer should be willing to accept some risk in his travel. If Rocky Point wants to attract lone male adventurers, go ahead and let the place resemble a Quentin Tarantino/Robert Rodriguez movie. But dads and moms and retirees prefer safety over excitement.

It doesn't matter that most of the people who visit or reside in Rocky Point don't get robbed, raped or murdered. Risk assessment isn't always entirely rational; people attach more importance to the sensational than to the mundane (hence fear of flying on airplanes, etc.)

It doesn't matter if the perpetrators came from somewhere else. No further explanation needed.

So what does matter? First, find the people who did the carjacking (other thread on this forum) and make an example of them. If a handful of bozos can get away with putting an entire regional industry at risk just because they feel like grabbing someone's car, then it's clear we can't count on the system to protect us. (The system? I don't care whether it's a professional investigation with due process through the courts like we have in the U.S. or a slam-bang crackdown on every tough-guy-owned bar and brothel in the region, culminating in a couple of heads in a bag being delivered to the police chief. I'm willing to accept the customs of other cultures as long as they bear some semblance of justice and they work. Just get it done.)

For the six murdered men along that route that should now make us all a little nervous, the government owes the people of Mexico a report on what it knows. It might be difficult to know which individuals pulled the triggers, but I suspect Calderon's government basically understands what happened there, and what it's implications might be for further violence.

If Rocky Point is to escape the fate of other parts of Mexico, the people (all of us, tourists and Mexican citizens alike) and government will need to take affirmative steps. I'd hate to see Rocky Point lost while the people who love it most make excuses and do nothing.
 
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there's nothing in Rocky Point to attract the criminal element as it is outside the principal smuggling routes,
Interesting post, and hopefully you will get some responses...pro and con...but from talking to people who have lived in Penasco for many years....the bolded area is not true....
 

Roberto

Guest
This is your earlier post:

Audsley Sez:
What I really wanted to know is whether Rocky Point has acquired a criminal element that may also be prone to robberies and kidnappings, which are surprisingly common elsewhere in Mexico even though such incidents are rarely publicized. I'm also wondering whether law enforcement is being compromised.



From your last post it seems to me that you really don't want to know anything. I read your first post as you were looking for some discussion about things in general here as well as the specific event and tried to respond as such. I do live here full time and have lots of Mexcian and American resident contacts and friends. Violence concernes all of us and we do talk about it and share news. If robberies and kidnappings were "surprisingly common" don't ya think we'd have heard about it? I'm not sitting in Phoenix watching the TV, my observations and experiences are first hand. Then you posted and told me what I had to say, item by item, didn't mean anything !!! Sorry about that. Since you see my input as meaningless I guess you have better information than I to make that decision. Where did you get that information?


Audsley sez:
we can't count on the system to protect us. (The system? I don't care whether it's a professional investigation with due process through the courts like we have in the U.S. or a slam-bang crackdown on every tough-guy-owned bar and brothel in the region, culminating in a couple of heads in a bag being delivered to the police chief. I'm willing to accept the customs of other cultures as long as they bear some semblance of justice and they work. Just get it done.)

For the six murdered men along that route that should now make us all a little nervous,
I also found it interesting for someone that says they are concerned about illegal activity, violence, etc. to promote the idea of vigilante justice as in your most recent post quoted above. Hey, maybe that's what happened to the 6 bodies, so you should be happy about that !! It was vigilante justice. Vigilantes don't abide by the laws. "A group of people that without authority assumes police powers, as pursuing and punishing suspects. "

You don't seem to think that some vigilantes delivering some heads in a bag would make us all a little nervous ? Who gets to define 'vigilante', who gets to make the rules here?

Clearly, to me anyway, you totally shifted your emphasis from your initial inquiry for some discussioin and information to your last post. You last post seem to be to let us know how informed you are about conditions here in Penasco and that what I had to say didn't matter. Hey I'm not saying I have all the answers, I do have considerable recent experience here in Mexico though.
 

InkaRoads

cronopiador
If I want to know as little as possible about risks in Rocky Point, I'll read the Rocky Point Times.....
I think you misread Rosie's post, she is talking about "Rocky Point News on line" and not Rocky Point Times, 2 very different things!!
Also for someone that has been going down to Rocky Point for 20 years, you do not know anybody to get your information, as Roberto says, first hand? WOW, you probably went once every couple years then, nothing wrong with that.
Now going back to the case in hand, I believe that even in recent murders the cops do not have all the details right away, not in USA much less in little town, middle of the desert in Mexico, as is the case of Sonoyta/Penasco, not even in CSI they find everything the same day the crime takes place, I believe you should let the authorities do their job and in due time we all will know what happen or at least what they want us to know, Patience is a virtue my friend!!
Another thing is, just because Calderon is fighting the drug lords does not mean he knows who did whome, when and why, all he knows and doing is trying to get rid off the bad elements :eek3:
 
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audsley

Guest
OK, InkaRoads, you caught me confusing Rocky Point Times with Rocky Point Online. I later caught my mistake but hoped it might go unnoticed. Guess not.

And you're right, I don't have a well-informed, unbiased source located in Rocky Point, which is why I came here. People on this forum seem to know what's going on.

Roberto, it's true that my tone and message did change. At first I was inquiring as to what is being said and whether the story behind the story is becoming known now that some time has passed. I figured people must be talking and trying to sort out what it means. The second post reflected my frustration with responses that seemed to suggest it's not such a big deal. Trust me, it's a big deal. With front-page tales of cartels taking over entire towns in Sonora and running off the local police force, Mexico makes Americans more nervous than ever before. Maybe it isn't fair, but Rocky Point needs to be squeaky clean because of what goes on elsewhere in the country.

The vigilante thing puzzled me. It wasn't the vigilante model I had in mind. I was thinking instead of the American model of yesteryear. I grew up in one of the most corrupt cities in the U.S., where no mobster was ever surprised with a search warrant or subpoena because invariably their moles in the courts and law enforcement agencies tipped them off in advance. The prudent policeman or politician didn't try to reform a world that didn't want to be reformed. But occasionally, when it was really important, the city's open secrets became the means to make it give up its darkest ones. The underworld included not only prostitutes and gamblers but also cabbies, hotel clerks and street-corner concierges who knew who came and went and with whom, and who was new in town. When word went out that people of a certain description were being looked for, there was already a standing army of eyes and ears. I know of three cases in my home town - two kidnappings for ransom of children from wealthy families and one gangland massacre that killed 3 police officers and 2 witnesses - that were solved through leads from a harried underworld whose vice operations were suddenly and relentlessly being "discovered." (And though my city is not New York, it's worth noting that when Son of Sam was on the loose in Queens a desperate police force eventually consulted with John Gotti.) That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. I don't consider that vigilantism. I consider it sensing an emergency and rising to the occasion.

I don't presume to give Mexicans a civics lesson on how to run their country, but I can speak with some authority on how Mr. and Mrs. Joe American will react to news reports of gang-style executions in a tourist area. They'll stay away. In this situation, patience is not a virtue. Patience looks too much like complacency and resignation, especially in a country suspected of having a little too much of those qualities.

A handful of criminals making a small score can trash everyone else's legitimate business enterprises. Look how it wrecked tourism in this part of Mexico (link below.) If anything like this ever happens around Rocky Point, you'll want to sell any real estate holdings for what you can get on the spot before it makes the news.
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2009_4815295
 

jerry

Guest
I sort of hate rich East Texans but that is a bummer...the word about this has already spread. A friend from Elfreda is canceling a Sonora trip next month with local outfitters ...
 
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