Double the Ricks and double the fish

R

Rhonda

Guest
I think next time scott and i head outwe are gonna target giant black sea bass the world record is only 560lbs. So we will probally have to catch quite a few befor we get one of that size. I here the best bait to use is totoaba so were gonna have to load up on a bunch of those. Man is this gonna be a fun trip.
 

RIC

Guest
OK Wahoo, I am going to call you out on this one. Hijacking a thread about a fun, successful fishing trip to push an agenda that most if not all grouper should be released is not appropriate. It is just as easy to start a new thread to start that conversation. Add to that, your perception that grouper are on the decline is incorrect. As wishamako stated, the divers and spearfisherman that I know tell a completely different story. That info added to my own experiences over the last 35 years fishing the Rocky Point area make me very confident that they are not. Are there as many grouper now as there were years ago? No. Are there other factors contributing to this to a much greater extent than sport and commercial fishing for grouper. Yes. The largest factor being the lack of fresh water entering the sea from the Colorado River. This has had a dramatic effect on every fishery in the northern sea of cortez. The 2nd largest factor is the reduction in bait. 40-50 years ago there were huge schools of large sardines in much greater numbers then there are now. The great reduction in the shrimp population has had an effect as well. This lower bait supply supports a much lower population of top predators regardless of what we sportfisherman do or do not take. Also if grouper were on the decline, then I would be finding it harder and harder each year to catch them. This is not the case. my catches as well as the catches of a number of other effective grouper fisherman I know have been consistent now for about 10 years. The size and quality of the fish has been consistent as well. There are definately plenty of 100 lb class fish around as well. every year, we catch a number of grouper from 85- 100 lbs and lose quite a few fish that are completely unstopable which must be over the 100 lb mark. The statement that they are a very easy species to target is off the mark as well. They are no easier to target then any other top predator and there are many days when they cannot be coaxed into biting even when they are around in great numbers. The idea that you just go out there and get them is very misleading. This perception leads many people who would like to catch grouper to give up after an unsuccessful trip or two and assume that they are all fished out. I guarantee you that every experienced grouper fisherman on this board has many stories of fishing for hours and hours without a bite.

The main point I want to get across is don't be discouraged when reading someones post about grouper being on the decline and that they are being fished out. I hear many people voice this opinion and give up on trying to catch a grouper. Dont do it, that is the lazy way out. Get out there and fish the reefs that you know using the techniques that have been described on various reports on this forum. Once you start getting a couple fish, your confidence will go way up and it will be much easier to fish for hours with no action waiting for the bite to turn on. Even if you dont have a large boat, fish the reefs in shallow water close to shore. There are many more grouper and in much larger sizes then you would ever imagine in reefs only 10-30 ft deep. Last, when you start getting some nice fish, take pictures and post them with pride on this forum, and dont worry about someone trying to taint your thread with propaganda.

Ric


www.RICSROCKYPOINTFISHING.COM
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
I don't know if I have any sentiment to this issue that hasn't already been expressed, but one reason Black Sea Bass and Gulf Grouper are listed on the endangered species list is most notably because of their very limited natural range. However, within that range, both species have been rebounding back toward their historical population densities.

Also, regarding the management of Black Sea Bass- California has had a no posession law regarding these fish for over 40 years, and because of the population rebound, this law is being reviewed to be possibly eased up in the near future.

As Stewart mentioned- large Blacks are typically dead from decompression when they hit the surface. Smaller ones can usually be vented and returned to swin back down. What a waste to have to leave the large ones to float there and feed the sharks out of fear of being fined or facing jail time... Stupid, stupid, stupid. I consider Mexican law regarding this species to be superior to American law for the simple fact that at least you don't have to intentionally waste the catch.

I remember reading a post on BloodyDecks a couple years back where someone called Ric F. out about keeping several large grouper, and Ric gave what I consider to be the most rationally justified reply any person could give: he keeps only his legal limit, and he consumes every fish he takes. No Sportsman with that ethic will ever deplete a species. I fully agree with Stuart that killing a fish merely for the dockside photo is ugly and unnecessary, but using your kill responsibly should never make you a target of the "morality police".

I could see the logic in maybe doing modified bag limits on grouper so that the 5 fish limit should also maintain a size distribution, like one fish larger than 40 inches, 3 between 20 and 40, and one below 20, similar to a slot limit like a lot of states have on freshwater species.

If we want to talk about truly endengered species, then let's talk about Dorado and Bluefin Tuna; two species that are in REAL trouble, because they both have global ranges and are disappearing world wide due to commercial over exploitation. Let's talk about Totoaba and their spawning grounds being chewed up by shrimp trawlers and the lack of flow from the Colorado river. Heck, let's talk about the drastically lower number of California yellowtail in Mexican waters.

In short, let's talk about the difference between utilization of a resource, and exploitation of that resource. My personal opinion is that Grouper are not being taken to the point of exploitation.

I find it infinitley more ugly that the crews on the San Diego Tuna boats actually get pissed at fishermen who pay their boat fees, hook and fight a fish, and then wave off the gaff and let the fish go. To them, the daily fish count is more important than the wishes of the fisherman who paid his way to be out there enjoying his sport. My last trip out last Sept I had the hot stick and was bit 2 or 3 times on every spot- so once I had my 5 fish limit (we were in Mexican waters) I started releasing my fish as I got them to the boat, and the deck hands were fuming that I was not decking the fish and putting them on someone else's ticket number so they could load the daily boat count...
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
Where I do get upset is seeing someone totally flaunt the limits or keep ANY fish that comes in the boat. Guys bragging about catching over a 100 fish and when I ask them what kind, they don't know (it was triggers) but they're certainly proud about slaying over 100 of them. That's just absolutely disgusting to me.

I would have turned them in... Mexican law says only 5 of any one species (even triggerfish) :)

There was another post on Bloodydecks awhile back with a photo of 5 guys on a panga in Loreto that was FILLED with red snapper (easily 50+ fish)... it was nauseating.
 

AZ ROB

Guest
Never be greedy take what you need for you and your family...I know guys and for them it is a numbers game and bragging rights I am very happy if I can catch enough fish so as I don't have to buy any for dinner.
 
H

hammer scuba

Guest
sorry for the kick ass day of fishing

i have been diving and fishing rocky point since i was 16 years old . i am now 43 years old. i have participated in many surveys and tagging programs. i am a very conservative fisherman . i was friends with a girl that did her phd thesis on the local groupers . we dove many reefs and pulled tape measures along and counted grouper. the numbers where mind boggling . these fish are hard to catch. there are not enough fishing poles in all of rocky point or capable fisherman to damage this population. my friend taught me how to vent grouper and i ask her what the survival rate of one caught below 100 feet was and she told me 5%. 5% ! i will be keeping my grouper and feeding my local friends with them. who are you " wahoo " my name is rick hammer my web site is hammerscuba.com i would love to discuss this issue with you in person . maybe you don't belong on this fishing forum.
 

Stuart

Aye carumba!!!
Staff member
...i was friends with a girl that did her phd thesis on the local groupers.
Hey Rick,

Would that have been Patti? I seem to remember a gal that had a website awhile back and want to say it was Patti Narjdin(spelling???) with lots of info about Rocky Point grouper on it? She was a BIG advocate of catch and release on grouper. Her theory had to do with the older grouper leading the younger grouper into the reefs to spawn and by taking the older grouper, you were basically wiping out the ones that would teach the younger grouper where the spawning grounds were.

Not saying I subscribe to that theory, but if that pea-brain inside my gray-haired skull remembers correctly, that was one of the key reasons she cited for catch and release of grouper. Don't even know if that website is still around; been years since I've seen it.
 
H

hammer scuba

Guest
it was jennifer rupnow a brilliant young lady and patti nardin sweet was full of mis information for personal attention,
 
Hey Rick,

Would that have been Patti? I seem to remember a gal that had a website awhile back and want to say it was Patti Narjdin(spelling???) with lots of info about Rocky Point grouper on it? She was a BIG advocate of catch and release on grouper. Her theory had to do with the older grouper leading the younger grouper into the reefs to spawn and by taking the older grouper, you were basically wiping out the ones that would teach the younger grouper where the spawning grounds were.

Not saying I subscribe to that theory, but if that pea-brain inside my gray-haired skull remembers correctly, that was one of the key reasons she cited for catch and release of grouper. Don't even know if that website is still around; been years since I've seen it.
Stuart you are talking about Patti Nardin... she was Rick Barnes girlfriend when I first met her and we were partners with her and Barnes on the old boat the "Island Explorer" she was my dive instuctor way back when I did my advanced scuba class... she used to own the dive shop after she bought out Barnes when the dive shop was named "China Sea Sailing & Diving".... Barb used to run the dive shop for her...

I know Rick was talking about somone else...
 

Stuart

Aye carumba!!!
Staff member
Thanks Rick and Mark - the years certainly seem to run together after awhile. I didn't know Patti per se, might have met her at the dive shop once or twice way back when -- I just happened to remember her crusade about saving all the grouper from reading her website. I do remember at the time I thought it odd as I read some of her stuff on the web. Got this mental picture of a big grouper holding a baby grouper by the fin and leading it to the reefs! Hahahah!

Has the wind layed down? Anybody get out fishing yesterday? I was really psyched up about going to Lobos this past weekend, until Bouyweather completely dashed any hope of that on Thursday. Hoping for the weekend of the 17th to try again.
 
Thanks Rick and Mark - the years certainly seem to run together after awhile. I didn't know Patti per se, might have met her at the dive shop once or twice way back when -- I just happened to remember her crusade about saving all the grouper from reading her website. I do remember at the time I thought it odd as I read some of her stuff on the web. Got this mental picture of a big grouper holding a baby grouper by the fin and leading it to the reefs! Hahahah!

Has the wind layed down? Anybody get out fishing yesterday? I was really psyched up about going to Lobos this past weekend, until Bouyweather completely dashed any hope of that on Thursday. Hoping for the weekend of the 17th to try again.
and wasn't the big one wearing glasses down on the end of it's nose??? the winds calmed down yesterday but there were still some good sized rollers until last evening just before sunset...
 

dmcauley

Guest
Wahoo, F#$@% off and get a life. I had more to say but people like yourself just like to put a wrench in other peoples joy, and yuo're not worth it. If you have nothing good to say. shut the F up!
 
H

hammer scuba

Guest
expert suggestions ?

what would you suggest we do ? sounds like your the expert ?
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
Wahoo, I admire your passion for your point of view as much as I admire Dan McCauley or Rick Hammer for theirs... however-

If you are really concerned for the fate of the Gulf Grouper as a species, then why not put that energy into persuading Conapesca to modify the legal catch and bag limits?

Seemingly, none of the degreed fisheries biologists in the Mexican government feel that the Gulf Grouper is as "endangered" as Wikipedia seems to think, or else the bag limit wouldn't be 5 fish of any size per person. Funny that the Dorado has more intensive bag limits when the average lifespan for a Dorado is 3-5 years (compared to a grouper's possible 70+ years lifespan)

Trying to change the minds of people who are set in their viewpoints is most certainly a complete waste of time and energy. Better to apply that energy where it might bear fruit.

For the record- I would only keep a large Grouper or BSB if I knew it was going to die of decompression anyway. I would much rather catch snapper, Dorado, Goldspot bass, or Flounder/Halibut for eating... and I'd rather see a stronger population of California Yellowtail return to the Gulf for the sportsman- tie a 20 pound yellowtail to a 40 pound grouper and that yellow would tow the grouper around backwards all day.
 

Kenny

Guest
what would you suggest we do ? sounds like your the expert ?
Just for the record Rick... I remember when you had the Crystal Maria, and at that time you were always talking about catch and release, and how you would always do your best to assure the release of ANY grouper if you could. It was one of the things that I found admirable when talking with you. I also remember very well the first Grouper hanging picture you had for advertising the catches on your new big boat, because I emailed you teasing you about it. You replied that it was the first one (grouper) on your new boat, and for that reason you just had to keep it... I'm not going to get into this fight because there have been times when I've crossed my own line, but I knew it when I did.

Kenny
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
Yes, but Conapesca defines and enforces policy- it's as good a place to start as any.

Rick Hammer's question is legitimate- what do you propose?

I seriously doubt that even an army of malicious grouper-hating Ricks and Rics could completely deplete the species. These guys are taking their legal limits of fish. If you don't like the law, then put your effort into changing the law.

Changing people is a fool's errand.
 

AZ ROB

Guest
One more time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_sea_bass

Last time I checked we were talking about the Sea of Cortez I havent been around as long as Rick and some others but I have fished with Rick and will do so again.
If there are large Kelp beds near Rocky Point I will be really upset no one has told me about them because that is the greatest place to dive.

Last time I was at my Condo (2 weeks ago) there were nets so close to shore I could snorkle out to them and see what they were (I hate to snorkle so they had to be close)
Why don't you do somthing about them? Seems the nets had lots of diverse fish in them and there is no way I don't care how good of a fisherman or guide Rick is or anyone else
we could NEVER catch that many fish in 6 months as they were catching overnight with a net

Wikipeda is B.S. it is a user defined site anybody can post anything they want if nobody disputes it that makes it correct?
 

dmcauley

Guest
A few sportsfishermen are not going to change anything one way or another. You are barking up the wrong tree and continue to aggravate people.
 
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