Even More Ridiculous...

AZ ROB

Guest
Call it like I see it Joe Nobody was forced to take a toxic loan out. How can anybody expect to ever pay anything off with an "interest only" loan? Now they cry that they didn't understand the terms. How about those people who overspent on credit cards? Were they forced to do that? The point I am making is you blame the big corporate ceo's and large financial institutions.I agree there was alot of bad stuff being done but there was greed on both sides from the lenders to the lendee's. Joe you know people as well as I do that bought homes there was no way in hell they could ever afford. There is more than enough blame to go around in this game. Greed is the worst of all evils
 

az-dan

Guest
Oh "SNAP". Come on Mexico Joe let us know how you really feel, lol.

Rob you evil employer/business owner shame on you for suggesting that people should be responsible for themselves and their actions. Hey I just want to thank you for keeping the "tit" filled.
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
The whole "toxic loan" argument to me seems capricious and circular.

The borrowers did not understand the agreements they were signing- just like young kids rarely understand or comprehend the possible long term effects that first hit of crystal meth might end up having on them.

The lenders simply made it really easy for them to get that "first hit". You can call this predatory, but there is no record of anyone with a gun put to their head and hearing "sign this contract or else..."

There can be no legitimate "blame" on either party in these scenarios. Any agreement documented between two parties with signatures is a valid contract, regardless of whether one, both, or neither party actually understand the terms of the contract.

To me, the "responsibility" lies with the people that are supposed to enforce contract law and make sure that the contract environment is fair and balanced... in other words: the legislative and judicial process.

I think the lawmakers failed America when they repealed all the laws that would have prevented these kinds of risky contracts from coming to pass... The laws had been there since 1932, but they were deemed "obsolete" in the "complex" modern world.

The crisis we are in is merely due to natural economic law educating us to the fact that things are not really that complex after all-

Infinite economic growth using free money has never been possible, nor will it ever be possible.
 

az-dan

Guest
Too much greed is bad and too little greed is also bad, we all need greed and most of us have it some more than others.

Greed is good, because it is the most important incentive for people to work hard, get a good education, start a business, or invest in a company. This makes people productive and contributing members of society. And in return, people are paid a salary, become more educated, and (hopefully) build wealth so that they can in return live a prosperous, more comfortable, and full life.

Unfortunately, this leads to three types of bad greed.

First, after some people have collected a large enough personal wealth, they retire. Thus making these people no longer a productive member of society, who use more resources than they provide. Sure, these people invest their wealth in stocks, bonds, real estate, and other financial investments; however these people are selfishly idle when they could still be contributing more to society. Of course not every retired person is able to work in the traditional sense, but they are still able to contribute. For example, instead of playing golf with other retirees in Florida, retirees could help their children by babysitting their grandchildren or even teaching their grandchildren how to fish or knit a sweater. In other words, it is alright to retire from work but do not retire from society. If someone is physically and mentally able to contribute, do so.

A second form of greed is for people to continue collecting wealth even after they have far surpassed the amount of money that they need for the rest of their lives. Some people leave so much inheritance that even their children and grandchildren can not possibly use all of it. This is why some people, such as Bill Gates, his wife (Melinda Gates), and Warren Buffet are donating most of their huge fortunes to charity. They understand the virtue of generosity, instead of succumbing to greed.

Third and finally, greed sometimes drives people to do unethical, immoral, and illegal things in the pursuit of more money. This is the greed that we find "evil".

Greed is typically considered the accumulation of wealth for personal satisfaction. It has no useful purpose except to become rich and to continue getting more wealthy. It is a strong desire in each and every one of us that is extremely difficult to overcome. Only through continuously contributing and donating to society can we find true rewards that are far greater than the illusion that greed provides.

How can we spread the greed? Take from those who have too much and give to those who have too little?
 

Mexico Joe

Cholla Bay 4 Life
Call it like I see it Joe Nobody was forced to take a toxic loan out. How can anybody expect to ever pay anything off with an "interest only" loan? Now they cry that they didn't understand the terms. How about those people who overspent on credit cards? Were they forced to do that? The point I am making is you blame the big corporate ceo's and large financial institutions.I agree there was alot of bad stuff being done but there was greed on both sides from the lenders to the lendee's. Joe you know people as well as I do that bought homes there was no way in hell they could ever afford. There is more than enough blame to go around in this game. Greed is the worst of all evils

Rob, I cant argue with this comment one bit. Everything you have just said right here is true. However, regulations that were in place to prevent this kind of greed on both sides were taking away by a particular party that has particular ideals. People who overspend on credit cards are idiots regardless, that has nothing to do with the mess we're in. Im pretty sure we're not where we are because people were overspending on their credit cards.... just saying. Rob Im blaming THE BIG INSTITUTIONS because THIS WAS THEIR FAULT! Food stamps and welfare have nothing to do with where we're at as a country right now, sorry. Furthermore, welfare and food stamps have nothing to do with why the middle class is shrinking. Everything you said here in this comment is DEAD TRUE, however your other comment had no merit and was completely ridiculous. I said there isnt a middle class anymore and you said its because of welfare and food stamps. Thats when my jaw hit the ground and i wanted to go SOAK my HEAD in the TOILET for 3-6 minutes
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
What you're calling good greed, is what I call ambition.
Ditto. Ambition is good, but ambition taken to an extreme can yield greed.

From there, the whole discussion drifts into morality and ethics, which pretty much guarantees arguments, name calling, or possibly even fist throwing :)
 

GV Jack

Snorin God
AZ DAN Said "however these people are selfishly idle when they could still be contributing more to society. Of course not every retired person is able to work in the traditional sense, but they are still able to contribute. For example, instead of playing golf with other retirees in Florida, retirees could help their children by babysitting their grandchildren or even teaching their grandchildren how to fish or knit a sweater. In other words, it is alright to retire from work but do not retire from society. If someone is physically and mentally able to contribute, do so."

I love having these kids telling me what I should be doing during my GOLDEN YEARS. Let's see. I retired at age 76, am supporting a 22 year old grandson who just graduated from Teen Challenge for heroin addiction, he joined the staff there at min wage, sending a granddaughter through school to become a paralegal at age 35 and in between all their episodes I occaissionally find a few hours to go play golf with other retirees. How selfish can I get. Unfortunately I'm not the only grandparent, "Retiree" in that boat.

More and more grandparent retirees are becoming mommy and daddy to the kids. Baby sitting hell, they're raising them. Why, because of greed. There's more to greed than money, folks. There's drugs, sex, booze, stupid computer games and just plain laziness greed. Yes that's a form of greed. It's all my rights greed. Me first, someone else can worry about the kids.

When I was young, before the meteors killed off the dinosaurs, when we saw a succesful person, we said "What can I do to be like that." Today it's "What can I do to take what he's got"

Dan, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your success. I kind of think we were in same business in aerospace machining and such and I know from many years experience how tough a business that is. I guess my gripe is the comments about retirees sitting idly by. You should come down here and see the people volunteering and all. I'll even treat you to a round of golf.....

Opps, maybe I was thinking of Rob in the business part, but you're still welcome Dan. You guys all look alike to me.
 

jerry

Guest
The authors of Modern Political Economics are clearly mindful of these things. “The only hope for a rational future,” they tell us, “is a massive transfer in social power away from the ‘markets’ (i.e. the banks) to those who cannot be captured by them because they are too many to bribe, threaten and extort.” The “who” in this case is global labor, “those who earn by actually working (and who do not rely on speculating with other people’s money or default probabilities), independently of whether they live in the United States, China, India, Africa or Europe.
Jerry- we might have different opinions of Paul Krugman, but we can agree on Andrew Sullivan's point that you paraphrased above... any wonder the IRS is turning the screws on foreign governments to provide financial data on ex-pat US citizens back to Washington?

Too bad that tax increases can/will do nothing to solve this nation's problems... We have a SOLVENCY problem, not a liquidity problem.

You could raise taxes to 100% on EVERYBODY in the US, and we would still need about 15 years to pay off the national debt (assuming you include unfunded future liabilities in your budget calculations)...

Unfortunatly, you would never get even one year of tax payments out of the population, since most people die without food after 21 days.
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
When I was young, before the meteors killed off the dinosaurs, when we saw a succesful person, we said "What can I do to be like that." Today it's "What can I do to take what he's got"
I'm willing to bet that statement will probably ruffle some feathers, but for what it's worth, I completely agree with you.
 

jerry

Guest
The sad part is you guys are both tools of international bankers who just love it when the small folk look at the small picture.
I'm willing to bet that statement will probably ruffle some feathers, but for what it's worth, I completely agree with you.
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
The sad part is you guys are both tools of international bankers who just love it when the small folk look at the small picture.
So, after reading everything I've posted in this thread, that's the conclusion you come up with? I'm a small person looking at the small picture?

Fair enough, I guess. I don't have to agree with someone to respect their opinion.


Maybe I just haven't been able to impress you as much as Doctor "let's have a war with aliens" Krugman... :(

But let's see, I've posted nothing that isn't supported/validated by journalistic integrity, and on top of that, I've only posted info from sources that are intellectually honest and promote absolutely no left/right political partisan bias of any kind... sources like zerohedge.com and thedailybell.com, as opposed to linking to the NYT and thedailybeast.com- both of which are considerably left of center. (again- not that I think it matters, but I personally just can't stand being on only one side of the teeter-totter.)

You also posted the following:

The authors of Modern Political Economics are clearly mindful of these things. “The only hope for a rational future,” they tell us, “is a massive transfer in social power away from the ‘markets’ (i.e. the banks) to those who cannot be captured by them because they are too many to bribe, threaten and extort.” The “who” in this case is global labor, “those who earn by actually working (and who do not rely on speculating with other people’s money or default probabilities), independently of whether they live in the United States, China, India, Africa or Europe..

But, have you considered that the primary "author" of modern political economics (John Maynard Keynes) was himself endeared to a system where governments should be entitled to create credit, call it money, and then spend it freely on whatever expansionist proposals they see fit?

In fact, the that's the entire premise of Keynes (and Hayek's) work: credit and money are interchangeable, and there actually exists such a thing as a free lunch, just so long as it is the credit issuing government that calls it "free" ... I don't believe any of it. For every line of Keynes or Hayek's writing I've read, I've also read Murray Rothbard and Ludwig Von Mises, and their theories (that money is simply a proxy for the stored value of labor) make INFINITELY more sense to me.

You see, anyone who has ever lived in the real world, knows that their only real choices are to:

1) Earn their lunch,
2) Steal their lunch,
3) Beg for their lunch, or
4) Starve

So, it's not those damn international bankers that have corrupted my soul by making me believe that everything will be alright if I just keep my faith with them and their brilliant PhD Economists... :(

My soul was most impacted by those who believe that reality is what it is... and it is not what we IMAGINE it COULD be.
 
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GV Jack

Snorin God
Wow, I couldn't have said that better, Robert. Basically because I couldn't have said it at all.

I have no idea what the heck you guys are talking about other than stealing lunch. Also, I have more important things to beg for.

Actually, I'm a little ticked at Jerry because I think he said something about a small tool or something like that.

I already put in my two cents so I'm gonna sit back and watch the battle of the intellects. I do prefer your authors for what it's worth.
 

moore_rb

Stay Thirsty My Friends
I warned you all 3 days ago.... Alice in Wonderland. :)

The Red Queen was not who she said she was (ever wonder why Lewis Carrol called her the "Red" Queen? Coincidence? :) )

Anyway - Here is an article I read that I think does a great job of describing what is going on in the world.

http://thedailybell.com/3123/Anthony-Wile-Limited-Hangout-at-the-Fed-Vs-the-Internet-Reformation


Just like the printing press made information more available to the masses and ushered in the end of the dark ages and brought about the Renaissance, so too today the Internet is making information even MORE readily available to the world... bringing with it similar pains and controversies as some try to cling to the "normalities" that they knew before, while others try to use the technology to gain unfair influence.

Jimmy Buffet baby... changes in latitude, changes in attitude. Nothing feels quite the same. The man's a genius.
 

az-dan

Guest
AZ DAN Said "however these people are selfishly idle when they could still be contributing more to society. Of course not every retired person is able to work in the traditional sense, but they are still able to contribute. For example, instead of playing golf with other retirees in Florida, retirees could help their children by babysitting their grandchildren or even teaching their grandchildren how to fish or knit a sweater. In other words, it is alright to retire from work but do not retire from society. If someone is physically and mentally able to contribute, do so."

I love having these kids telling me what I should be doing during my GOLDEN YEARS. Let's see. I retired at age 76, am supporting a 22 year old grandson who just graduated from Teen Challenge for heroin addiction, he joined the staff there at min wage, sending a granddaughter through school to become a paralegal at age 35 and in between all their episodes I occaissionally find a few hours to go play golf with other retirees. How selfish can I get. Unfortunately I'm not the only grandparent, "Retiree" in that boat.

More and more grandparent retirees are becoming mommy and daddy to the kids. Baby sitting hell, they're raising them. Why, because of greed. There's more to greed than money, folks. There's drugs, sex, booze, stupid computer games and just plain laziness greed. Yes that's a form of greed. It's all my rights greed. Me first, someone else can worry about the kids.

When I was young, before the meteors killed off the dinosaurs, when we saw a succesful person, we said "What can I do to be like that." Today it's "What can I do to take what he's got"

Dan, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your success. I kind of think we were in same business in aerospace machining and such and I know from many years experience how tough a business that is. I guess my gripe is the comments about retirees sitting idly by. You should come down here and see the people volunteering and all. I'll even treat you to a round of golf.....

Opps, maybe I was thinking of Rob in the business part, but you're still welcome Dan. You guys all look alike to me.
Yea don't lump me in with that greedy evil business owner Rob! Golf sure when I get my check from the "breast" aka "tit" the end of the month I'll be there. Rob will need to put in a few more hours to pay his taxes so he should be working.
 
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